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3913
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, : CR 96 1016(S-1)
4 v. : U.S. Courthouse
5 Uniondale, New York BRUCE W. GORDON, WHO'S WHO
6 WORLD WIDE REGISTRY, INC., : STERLING WHO'S WHO, INC.,
7 TARA GARBOSKI, ORAL FRANK : OSMAN, LAURA WEITZ, ANNETTE
8 HALEY, SCOTT MICHAELSON, : STEVE RUBIN, and MARTIN
9 REFFSIN, :    TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL
10 Defendants. : February 12, 1998
11 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 9:22 o'clock a.m.

12 BEFORE:

13 HONORABLE ARTHUR D. SPATT, U.S.D.J and a jury
14 APPEARANCES:
15 For the Government: ZACHARY W. CARTER
16 United States Attorney One Pierrepont Plaza
17 Brooklyn, New York 11201
By: RONALD G. WHITE, ESQ.
18 CECIL SCOTT, ESQ. Assistant U.S. Attorneys
19 For the Defendants: NORMAN TRABULUS, ESQ.
20 For Bruce W. Gordon
170 Old Country Road, Suite 600
21 Mineola, New York 11501

22 EDWARD P. JENKS, ESQ.
For Who's Who Worldwide
23 Registry, Inc. and
Sterling Who's, Who, Inc.
24 332 Willis Avenue
Mineola, New York 11501
25
(cont'd)


HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3914

1 APPEARANCES (cont'd):

2 GARY SCHOER, ESQ. For Tara Garboski
3 6800 Jericho Turnpike
Syosset, New York 11791
4
ALAN M. NELSON, ESQ.
5 For Oral Frank Osman
3000 Marcus Avenue
6 Lake Success, New York 11042

7 WINSTON LEE, ESQ.
For Laura Weitz
8 319 Broadway
New York, New York 10007
9
MARTIN GEDULDIG, ESQ.
10 For Annette Haley
400 South Oyster Bay Road
11 Hicksville, New York 11801

12 JAMES C. NEVILLE, ESQ.
For Scott Michaelson
13 225 Broadway
New York, New York 10007
14
THOMAS F.X. DUNN, ESQ.
15 For Steve Rubin
150 Nassau Street
16 New York, New York 10038

17 JOHN S. WALLENSTEIN, ESQ.
For Martin Reffsin 18 215 Hilton Avenue
Hempstead, New York 11551
19

20 Court Reporter: HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR
United States District Court
21 Two Uniondale Avenue
Uniondale, New York 11553
22 (516) 485-6558

23
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript
24 produced by Computer-Assisted Transcription
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3915

1 M O R N I N G S E S S I O N

2

3 (Whereupon, the following takes place in the

4 absence of the jury.

5 THE COURT: The issue is, attack as a recent

6 fabrication. A very interesting evidentiary rule, which I

7 had an opportunity as a lawyer to test in the Appellate

8 Division, so I remember a little bit about it.

9 You were supposed to show me that there was an

10 attack as a recent fabrication, were you not?

11 MR. WHITE: I do, and I have the transcript

12 citations, your Honor.

13 THE COURT: What are the citations?

14 MR. WHITE: First of all, your Honor, in

15 Mr. Trabulus' opening at page 92 of the transcript, he

16 indicates that -- he tells the jury they will hear

17 Ms. Gaspar testify. And he says to listen carefully to

18 what she is asked, and some of the reasons she has to say

19 something different now than what she said before.

20 THE COURT: He said that in his opening

21 statement?

22 MR. WHITE: Yes, on page 92 of the transcript.

23 THE COURT: All right.
24 MR. WHITE: Then, on the cross-examination by
25 Mr. Trabulus of Ms. Gaspar, he made -- he asked a series

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3916

1 of questions suggesting that at the time t hat the agents

2 came to speak to Ms. Gaspar, that they had indicated to

3 her, or that she had thought that her participation was

4 already known to them, in other words, that the agents

5 already found out about her phony logs and, therefore, had

6 the reason to fabricate.

7 Page 1732 he asked her when she first talked to

8 the government.

9 Page 1736, he says, and didn't they tell you that

10 they had spoken to other people, and that the people whose

11 names are on the logs, that told them that they didn't

12 attend those meetings, in other words, that the agents

13 confronted Ms. Gaspar at that point.

14 Page 1739 he says, you knew when they spoke to

15 you that there was a criminal investigation under way.

16 Then on page 1741 he says, they indicated that

17 they knew about the logs. And he said, and then you tell

18 them, yeah, I did it, but they told me -- they told me to

19 do it, right?

20 In other words, he is implying that when they

21 made up the story.

22 THE COURT: Who is "they"?

23 MR. WHITE: In Mr. Trabulus' question the "they"
24 is Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin. On those pages
25 Mr. Trabulus is confronting Ms. Gaspar saying you realized

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3917

1 when the agents confronted you about the evidence, they

2 knew about your participation you felt. And the response

3 was yes, I did it, but they, Gordon and Reffsin, told me

4 to do it.

5 Mr. Trabulus immediately followed it up on page

6 1742, and said that the agents -- he asked Ms. Gaspar, did

7 the agents tell you that they weren't interested in you

8 but your bosses? Again implying at that point she had

9 that motive.

10 On his recross, pages 1874 through 1877 he goes

11 through all of the same themes again that the agents

12 confronted her with her participation, and wasn't it true

13 that the agents knew of the falsification of the logs;

14 didn't it occur to you that the agents might have found

15 out about your logs through talking to other people?

16 So, the clear implication of the questions was

17 that it was only when she was confronted, and it appeared

18 to her that the agents knew about it, that she raised this

19 story.

20 THE COURT: Another problem I am having with

21 this, Mr. White, is whether it is a prior consistent

22 statement in the first place.

23 We know that the law abhors prior consistent
24 statements, and this is probably the only evidentiary rule
25 that permits the use of a prior consistent statement.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3918

1 Now, even assuming you have an attack as a recent

2 fabrication, you must have an unequivocal prior consistent

3 statement.

4 Now, what is the prior consistent statement?

5 MR. WHITE: The statement as recounted by

6 Ms. Benjamin is that several weeks before Ms. Gaspar left

7 the company, Ms. Gaspar comes to her extremely upset and

8 says that Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin have asked her to do

9 certain things that she didn't like to do. When you

10 overlay that with Ms. Gaspar's testimony it is

11 consistent. Ms. Gaspar said she left the company in late

12 1994. She created the logs in late September '94, thus a

13 few weeks, about four weeks before she left.

14 She said Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin told her to

15 do things that she didn't like. That's what she tells

16 Ms. Benjamin.

17 Ms. Gaspar's testimony is that Mr. Gordon and

18 Mr. Reffsin around that time instructed her to do these

19 logs, which were phony, which were a crime.

20 THE COURT: Except she didn't tell Ms. Benjamin,

21 apparently, if I recall her testimony, and I probably have

22 it by now, that Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin told her to lie

23 in the logs.
24 MR. WHITE: Correct. She is not that specific.
25 But I don't think the rule requires that it be that

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3919

1 specific.

2 THE COURT: I think it does. I think that you

3 have to be very careful with this rule.

4 As a matter of fact, the texts on the subject

5 say -- well, they say in effect, be careful about it. I

6 am going to be careful and exclude it.

7 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the jury has already

8 heard it.

9 THE COURT: I know.

10 MR. WHITE: And it --

11 THE COURT: You can keep it in if it was a n

12 admission by the corporation. However, the corporation --

13 is that admissible as to any of the counts in the

14 indictment independent of the recent -- the attack as a

15 recent fabrication?

16 MR. WHITE: No, the corporation is not named in

17 the obstruction county or tax count.

18 May I request this, your Honor? I believe the

19 case law would support it. And over last night and during

20 the lunch break I didn't have the time to do it more

21 exhaustively. Will your Honor give me the opportunity to

22 review it tonight and tomorrow either give you something

23 in written or cite the cases to your Honor before you tell
24 them to not consider it and consider it again if I were to
25 be persuasive?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3920

1 THE COURT: Yes, I will do that.

2 Ready to go?

3 MR. TRA BULUS: Judge, may I go to the wash room?

4 THE COURT: Quickly.

5 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I need to talk to Mr. Trabulus

6 about the opportunity to do this, so I will take that up

7 with him at this time.

8 THE COURT: Good thinking.

9

10 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)

11

12 THE COURT: Some day I will have to tell you

13 about the attack on the recent fabrication case that I

14 had, which is really very interesting, when we have some

15 time.

16 MR. WHITE: If I find it, shall I put it in my

17 paper to you?

18 THE COURT: Yes. It is called Licht, L I C H T,

19 Rule against the City Savings Bank. The same rule

20 applies.

21 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Did the Appellate Division

22 agree with you?

23 THE COURT: Yes, they did. Would I tell you
24 otherwise?
25 MR. WHITE: Did the statement come in or not?

HARRY RAPAPOR T, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3921

1 THE COURT: It didn't come in, but it caused a

2 reversal because it should have come in.

3 MR. WHITE: Then I like the case.

4

5 D E B R A B E N J A M I N ,

6 called as a witness, having been previously

7 duly sworn, was examined and testified as

8 follows:

9

10 THE CLERK: Jury entering.

11 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the

12 courtroom.)

13 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury.

14 Please be seated. I want to thank you for being

15 so punctual and prompt and proper. I am thinking of

16 another P, but I can't -- perfect. All of you this time.

17 I am sorry to have kept you waiting. I had

18 another matter -- several other matters. In fact, I have

19 not been able to conclude one matter that we had to put

20 over. These are the matters that caused th e delay.

21 Sorry about that.

22 You may proceed.

23 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I have no further
24 questions for Ms. Benjamin.
25 THE COURT: All right. Cross-examination.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3922

1 MR. TRABULUS: Mr. Wallenstein will go first,

2 your Honor.

3

4 CROSS-EXAMINATION

5 BY MR. WALLENSTEIN:

6 Q Good morning, Ms. Benjamin.

7 A Good morning.

8 Q My name is John Wallenstein, and I represent Martin

9 Reffsin.

10 Ms. Benjamin, you worked at Who's Who during what

11 period of time?

12 A From the fall of 1992 until March of '95.

13 Q Do you know Mr. Reffsin?

14 A Yes.

15 Q On how many occasions have you seen Mr. Reffsin at

16 the Who's Who offices in Lake Success?

17 A About once a month, just to the say hello in passing.

18 Q Okay.

19 Would it be fair to say that the extent of your

20 contact with him was you knew who he was, he knew who you

21 were, and you would just have a greeting in the hallway?

22 A Yes.

23 Q All right.
24 In your section of the operation, you had nothing
25 to do with Mr. Reffsin directly; is that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3923
Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein


1 A That is correct.

2 Q And you knew Mr. Reffsin to be an outside accountant;

3 is that correct?

4 A Yes.

5 Q You were aware that he had his own accounting firm

6 and he came in to do the books once a month or so?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And when he came in, he had some interaction with

9 Mr. Gordon; is that correct?

10 A Well, he was in Mr. Gordon's office usually.

11 Q Also with Ms. Gaspar?

12 A Yes.

13 Q How about Liz Sautte r?

14 A On occasion.

15 Q And none with you in your section?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Ms. Konopka and Colletti worked for you?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Is it fair to say neither of them would have a reason

20 to have an interaction with Mr. Reffsin?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q I will have you look in evidence at what is

23 Government's Exhibit 643.
24 You were asked to look at those yesterday.
25 (Handed to the witness.)

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3924
Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein


1 A Yes.

2 Q Would you take that out of the plastic, please.

3 What you have there are the usage logs for the

4 Hummingbird condo and the penthouse on East 54th Street,

5 correct?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And you indicated yesterday.

8 That you were not present at any of the meetings

9 where your name appears on the log s; is that right?

10 A That's correct.

11 Q Would it be fair to say that to the best of your

12 knowledge, none of the people who worked for you were

13 there either?

14 A Yes, also.

15 Q And that would be Suzanne and Tracey; is that

16 correct?

17 A Uh-huh.

18 THE COURT: Yes?

19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am sorry.

20 Q Anyone else who appeared in this log who worked for

21 you?

22 A Maggie Swendseid.

23 Q Do you know whether she was present at any of the
24 meetings where she is alleged to have been?
25 A No. We worked very closely together. She was based

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3925
Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein


1 in the Manhattan office, maybe there was an occasion that

2 that you there that I was not aware of, but in general, I

3 would say no.

4 Q Is it a fair statement t hat Mr. Reffsin had no

5 interaction with Ms. Swendseid either?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Do you in fact know whether he even knew who she was

8 or her name?

9 A I wouldn't know that.

10 Q There are some other names appearing in this log,

11 Mr. Gordon's name and Ms. Sautter's name, do you know if

12 Mr. Reffsin new Robert Lamb?

13 A I don't know, possibly from sight, passing him in the

14 company.

15 Q Do you know Mr. Lamb's position in the company?

16 A He was a group leader.

17 Q He was involved in the sales?

18 A Uh-huh.

19 Q Something outside of Mr. Reffsin's area?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And Tara Green was also a group leader?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Do you know who Harold Sims is?
24 A I think Harold was also a group leader at one time.
25 I am not 100 percent sure on that.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

3926
Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein


1 Q Okay.

2 Would it be fair to say whoever Harold Sims is or

3 was, he would have had no reason to have any interaction

4 with Mr. Reffsin either?

5 MR. WHITE: Objection to the form of the

6 question, what Mr. Reffsin would know.

7 THE COURT: Can I hear the question,

8 Mr. Reporter?

9 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the

10 requested material.)

11 THE COURT: Overruled.

12 A I am not 100 percent sure who Harold Sims is, so I

13 wouldn't know if he had reason to have interaction with

14 Mr. Reffsin.

15 Q Do you know if Mr. Sims worked in the financial area

16 or had anything to do with the company's books?

17 A Not that's I am aware of.

18 Q Okay.

19 Can you tell us who Michael Powers is?

20 A He was a group leader.

21 Q Also in the sales area?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And Tom R, do you know who that would be?
24 A Who?
25 Q Tom R.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3927
Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein


1 A No.

2 Q Last initial R.

3 A No.

4 Q Gary Kohler?

5 A The computer person, the MIS person.

6 Q You indicated that neither you nor any of the people

7 who worked for you were present at any of the meetings

8 that you are alleged to have attended?

9 A On the --

10 Q On the logs.

11 A Yes.

12 Q And would it be fair to say that Maria Gaspar was

13 present in the office on a day-to-day basis?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And would it be fair to say that she was aware of the

16 responsibility of the people named in these logs?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And would it be fair to say that she was aware of

19 working relationships, and by that I mean she would know

20 who worked together with who?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And would it also be fair to say that she would know

23 what particular areas of the company people would be
24 working together on?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3928
Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein


1 Q Would it also be fair to say that Mr. Gordon knew

2 everything that was going on in the company?

3 A Yes.

4 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.

5 THE COURT: Overruled.

6 Q He was a hands on CEO?

7 A Very much so.

8 Q A fair statement?

9 A Very much so.

10 Q Would it be fair to say that Mr. Gordon's philosophy

11 of running the company was, it is my company, and I'll do

12 whatever I want. And I don't care what anybody else has

13 to say?

14 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.

15 THE COURT: Overruled.

16 A Would you ask that qu estion again as to philosophy?

17 Q Let me withdraw the question and rephrase it for

18 you.

19 Mr. Gordon ran the company the way Mr. Gordon

20 wanted to run the company, correct?

21 A Yes.

22 Q If he asked you for your input and your advice and

23 you gave it to him, sometimes you took it and sometimes
24 you didn't; is that correct?
25 A That is correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3929
Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein


1 Q If he felt whatever you had to say what something he

2 didn't want to do or wasn't interested in or didn't agree

3 with, he wouldn't do it?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q Even if you were right?

6 A I guess that's correct.

7 Q He in fact had attorneys working for him for the

8 company, correct, from time to time?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Phil Pierce was one of them?

11 A Y es.

12 Q And Mr. Pierce was involved in representing the

13 company for a trademark litigation; is that correct?

14 A I believe that's the nature of the case.

15 Q And you testified yesterday that there came a time

16 when Mr. Pierce gave Mr. Gordon certain advice, correct?

17 A Yes.

18 Q At the time, would it be a fair statement that

19 Mr. Pierce had been hired by Mr. Gordon in Who's Who for

20 his expertise in the area?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And would it also be a fair statement that at the

23 time Mr. Pierce gave the specific advice, and that had to
24 do with the wording in the letters --
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3930
Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein


1 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.

2 THE COURT: I didn't hear the end of the

3 question.

4 MR. TRABULUS: I thought she began answer ing it.

5 THE COURT: Did you complete your question?

6 MR. WALLENSTEIN: It is answerable in its present

7 form.

8 THE COURT: Is that your question?

9 MR. WALLENSTEIN: There is a follow up to it, but

10 I will ask that question.

11 THE COURT: Are you objecting to that question?

12 MR. TRABULUS: I am objecting to the question I

13 heard, yes.

14 THE COURT: Let me hear what you heard.

15 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I don't remember what I asked.

16 THE COURT: Mr. Reporter, please.

17 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the

18 requested material.)

19 THE COURT: Sustained as to form. Strike the

20 answer. The jury is instructed to disregard it.

21 Q Mr. Pierce gave Mr. Gordon certain advice with

22 respect to wording to be used in the communication; is

23 that correct?
24 MR. TRABULUS: Objection. Foundation.
25 THE COURT: I don't recall, but I know you

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3931
Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein


1 testified something about this yesterday, but were you

2 present when that occurred?

3 A When --

4 THE COURT: How did Mr. Pierce, the attorney give

5 advice to Mr. Gordon, in what way?

6 THE WITNESS: Just to fax any outgoing letters.

7 THE COURT: You were asked to fax Mr. Pierce a

8 copy of outgoing letters?

9 THE WITNESS: Yes.

10 THE COURT: For him to review the letters?

11 THE WITNESS: Exactly.

12 THE COURT: To approve the form and the words,

13 whatever?

14 THE WITNESS: Yes.

15 THE COURT: Mr. Pierce had his office outside of

16 Who's Who's offices?

17 THE WITNESS: That's correct.

18 THE COURT: So you faxed these letters. And what

19 happened after that?

20 THE WITNESS: Then he -- I don't reme mber if it

21 was a phone call or refax, but he said that wording had to

22 be changed.

23 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, can we establish who
24 asked that it be faxed to Mr. Pierce?
25 THE COURT: Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3932
Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein


1 THE WITNESS: Mr. Pierce. He was at a meeting in

2 the office and asked in the future any copies of letters

3 be faxed for his review.

4 THE COURT: And you did fax these letters?

5 THE WITNESS: Yes.

6 THE COURT: How did they come back to you, by

7 phone call?

8 THE WITNESS: I don't remember offhand if it was

9 by phone call or fax.

10 THE COURT: And Mr. Pierce made certain

11 statements?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes.

13 THE COURT: All right.

14 Q In fact, Mr. Pierce instructed you to word the

15 letters in a specific way; is that correct?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q Did you then inform Mr. Gordon of what Mr. Pierce

18 said?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And Mr. Gordon's response was that the attorney is

21 not going to run my business, I will do it my way; is that

22 correct?

23 A Yes.
24 Q Is it fair to say that that statement summed up
25 Mr. Gordon's philosophy of the business? I will do it my

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3933
Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein


1 way?

2 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.

3 THE COURT: Sustained.

4 Q You testified yesterday that sometime in the Spring

5 of 1994, you had a conversation with Liz Sautter with

6 respect to the logs?

7 A Uh-huh.

8 THE COURT: Yes?

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am sorry.

10 Q Can you be more specific, April, May, June?

11 A I am bad with dates. I can re member by season pretty

12 much, but not by dates.

13 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, may we approach?

14 THE COURT: Come on up.

15

16 (Whereupon, at this time the following took place

17 at the sidebar.)

18 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, this was one of the

19 two hearsay objections which I made yesterday which your

20 Honor originally overruled, and then became the subject of

21 our -- my subsequent application after the jury went out.

22 And I thought this was included along with the Gaspar -- I

23 objected to this on the grounds of hearsay.
24 THE COURT: What are you talking about now?
25 MR. TRABULUS: The testimony by Liz Sautter, that

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3934
Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein


1 she was asked, or the company was to maintain some kind of

2 a file for the penthouse in Manhattan.

3 The te stimony given by the witness is she recalls

4 this being in the Spring of 1994, although she was

5 terrible with the dates.

6 I objected on hearsay grounds before

7 Ms. Sautter's -- the substance of Ms. Sautter's statements

8 was related to the jury. Your Honor overruled the

9 objection.

10 After the jury left yesterday when I asked your

11 Honor to reconsider the hearsay objections, I included

12 that one as well as the testimony about Gaspar's

13 statement.

14 Once again, your Honor, in the absence of a

15 finding that there was a conspiracy and that it was in

16 furtherance of it, it should not be admissible. It would

17 not be admissible against the corporations, because the

18 logs relate only to the tax counts and obstruction counts

19 which the corporations are charged, your Honor. And it is

20 not admissible against Mr. Gordon.

21 In light of the present state of the record, I

22 would object to a question concerning this conversation.

23 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I think --
24 THE COURT: What is going to happen here? What
25 is the conversation going to reveal?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3935
Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein


1 MR. WHITE: It was already revealed yesterday,

2 that Ms. Sautter --

3 THE COURT: Nothing new is coming out?

4 MR. WHITE: Today?

5 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I don't expect anything new to

6 come out. I expect to explore deeper into what happened.

7 THE COURT: What happened yesterday, refresh my

8 recollection?

9 MR. WHITE: The witness testified that

10 Ms. Sautter, the office manager told Ms. Benjamin that

11 she, Ms. Sautter, was keeping a log as to when people held

12 business meetings in the penthouse. And that if

13 Ms. Benj amin in connection with her duties had meetings

14 there she should advise Ms. Sautter of that.

15 Now, the defendant's theory in cross-examining

16 Ms. Gaspar is that it was Ms. Gaspar's obligation to keep

17 those logs. And Mr. Trabulus' theory is when Ms. Gaspar

18 failed to do that, she on her own without informing Gordon

19 and Reffsin, created the log to cover up the dereliction

20 in her duties.

21 I think it may be admitted eventually as a

22 co-conspirator statement by Ms. Sautter.

23 You will recall that Ms. Sautter is involved in
24 other parts of the tax conspiracy. She is the one who
25 gave Mr. Gordon a supplemental card of her American

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3936
Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein


1 Express card assisting him in reporting that to the IRS.

2 Ms. Sautter is the one who told the other employees tha t

3 they have to have a change in ownership, and we know

4 Mr. Gordon lied about the ownership of the company to the

5 IRS and to the bankruptcy court. Ms. Sautter is the one

6 who Dr. Grossman testified is the one who most likely

7 wrote the notes on those phony documents and instructed

8 him to sign them.

9 So, I think at a minimum since the jury already

10 heard it --

11 THE COURT: Tell me again what this witness said

12 that Ms. Sautter said about the matter.

13 MR. WHITE: This witness says that in the Spring

14 of 1994, approximately, Ms. Sautter, who was the office

15 manager, told her, Debra Benjamin, this witness, that she,

16 Liz Sautter was keeping a log of business meetings at the

17 penthouse, and if Ms. Benjamin held such meetings, to tell

18 her, Liz.

19 THE COURT: That's what you are objecting to,

20 that testimony?

21 MR. TRA BULUS: Yes.

22 THE COURT: I am overruling the objection, and I

23 will do it again.
24 I am not quite sure that because the counts
25 involving a specific charge, not to include the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3937
Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein


1 corporation, would mean that the testimony of an employee

2 of the corporation would not come in. And I am not sure

3 about that. I am overruling the objection.

4 MR. TRABULUS: All right.

5

6 (Whereupon, at this time the following takes

7 place in open court.)

8 THE COURT: You may proceed.

9 Q Ms. Benjamin, you testified yesterday that you had

10 this conversation with Ms. Sautter in the Spring of '94

11 with respect to the logs, correct?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And what did she say?

14 A She just asked me to inform her if there was ever a

15 time t hat I would be using the penthouse in Manhattan, to

16 let her know.

17 Q And she told you the reason was --

18 A She was keeping a log and she was keeping the

19 information.

20 Q Bear with me, I know you know the answer to the

21 question, but let me finish the question first.

22 A Sorry.

23 Q Did she tell you the same thing with respect to the
24 Hummingbird Road condo?
25 A She didn't indicate either or. I just presumed it

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3938
Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein


1 was Manhattan.

2 Q So, she didn't say the penthouse in Manhattan?

3 A She just said if you need to use the apartment.

4 And I believe it was directed at Manhattan in

5 particular, in recollection.

6 Q The word she used was "Apartment"?

7 A Yes.

8 Q It is possible she could have been referring to

9 Hummingbird Road?

10 A It is possible.

11 Q It is possible she could have been referring to both;

12 is that correct?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And she told you she was keeping a log with respect

15 to the usage of the apartment; is that correct?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And did she tell you what information was to be

18 contained in the log?

19 A No.

20 Q Did she tell you to tell you if you used the

21 apartment for a meeting, that she needed to know who was

22 there and what the purpose of the meeting was?

23 A No, it wasn't a big conversation. Just if you need
24 to use the apartment, I need to know, because I have a
25 log.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3939
Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein


1 Q She indicated she was the person keeping that log; is

2 that correct?

3 A Yes.

4 Q She didn't tell y ou to go to Maria Gaspar?

5 A No.

6 Q Do you know whether or not Ms. Gaspar had any

7 meetings with Mr. Reffsin and Mr. Gordon in 1994?

8 A Yes.

9 Q How many times did she have such meetings?

10 A That I wouldn't know.

11 Q Were you present at any of them?

12 A No.

13 Q You testified yesterday with respect to a

14 conversation you had with Maria Gaspar; is that correct?

15 A Correct.

16 Q And she had indicated she had come from a meeting

17 with Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin?

18 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.

19 THE COURT: Overruled.

20 Q Is that correct?

21 A That's right.

22 Q Do you know if in fact there was such a meeting on

23 that day?
24 A Do I know there was a meeting? I know she was in the
25 office with Bruce and Mr. Reffsin.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3940
Benjami n-cross/Wallenstein


1 Q You are certain the three of them were together in

2 the office on that day?

3 A Yeah.

4 Q Do you know what was discussed?

5 A No.

6 Q She didn't tell you what was discussed?

7 A No.

8 Q Mr. Reffsin didn't tell you what was discussed?

9 A No.

10 Q And Mr. Gordon didn't tell you either?

11 A No.

12 Q Wouldn't it be fair to say that Ms. Gaspar's meeting

13 with Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin in the office was not an

14 unusual occurrence?

15 A No, it was not unusual.

16 MR. WALLENSTEIN: No further questions.

17 Thank you, Ms. Benjamin.

18

19 CROSS-EXAMINATION

20 BY MR. TRABULUS:

21 Q Good morning, Ms. Benjamin.

22 A Good morning.

23 Q The last day you worked for Who's Who Worldwide was
24 the day of the raid; is that correct?
25 A Yes, that's right.



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3941
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 Q Suzanne Konopka who worked for you continued to work

2 after that as far as you know?

3 A Yes.

4 Q You understand she worked for no salary for a period

5 of time?

6 A Yes.

7 Q But you did not?

8 A I did not.

9 Q Now, after you worked for Who's Who Worldwide did you

10 have another job?

11 A Yes, I did.

12 Q And where was that first job you had?

13 A Communications Network Company in Manhattan.

14 Q Subsequently did you hire some people who were

15 working for Who's Who who -- to work there?

16 A Yes.

17 Q What did you start out within that firm?

18 A Office manager.

19 Q And did you rise up within the firm?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Did you rise up relatively quickly?

22 A Relatively quickly.

23 Q What position did you reach?
24 A It was called a vice presidency, but it really
25 wasn't.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3942
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 Q Now, let me ask you, you testified here that you

2 worked for Who's Who Worldwide a period of, it was about

3 three and a half years?

4 A I guess it would be two and a half.

5 Q Two and a half years?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And isn't it correct that during the time you worked

8 at Who's Who Worldwide, you did not believe that you were

9 committing any crime?

10 A Absolutely.

11 Q That's correct?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q Indeed, when agents -- when postal inspectors came

14 you initially spoke to them without any attorney present;

15 is that correct?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q And that's because you felt no crime was done by you

18 there; is tha t correct?

19 A Of course.

20 Q As you sit here today, you believe that you committed

21 no crime?

22 A Absolutely.

23 Q And you were involved in arranging for mailings with
24 mailing lists; is that correct?
25 A That's correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3943
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 Q And mailings to people who were going to get

2 solicitation letters that said they were nominated; is

3 that correct?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q And you knew the people's names came from mailing

6 lists; is that correct?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And you knew the solicitation letter would say

9 "nominated", correct?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Is it also correct that none of the solicitation

12 letters ever told any member -- withdrawn.

13 Is that correct that none of the solicitation

14 letters actually said that the recipient had been

15 nominated by another member of Who's Who Worldwide? That

16 though always left open another possibility?

17 A To the best of my recollection, yes.

18 Q Were you familiar with the contents of the sales

19 presentations or scripts or pitches as they have been

20 referred to?

21 A No, just from what I would overhear.

22 Q Do you know as a matter of fact not a single one of

23 those sales presentations or scripts written by
24 Mr. Gordon, say that the person being spoken to says that
25 they were nominate by another member?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3944
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 A I wouldn't have knowledge of that.

2 Q You wouldn't know that one way or another?

3 A No.

4 Q Going to the company you worked for afterward, the

5 communications company, did that company subseq uently come

6 into some kind of trouble with the law?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Can you tell me, that trouble with the law had

9 absolutely nothing to do with Who's Who Worldwide, did it?

10 A Nothing at all.

11 Q It had absolutely nothing to do with Mr. Gordon; is

12 that correct?

13 A Nothing at all.

14 Q Nothing at all to do with Sterling, is that correct?

15 A Nothing at all.

16 Q The person who hired you, was he the head of that

17 company?

18 A No, he was not.

19 Q Did you have any contact with the head of the company

20 while you were working there?

21 A Of course, yes.

22 Q Did the head of the company subsequently go to jail?

23 A No.
24 Q Did the head of the company subsequently get
25 criminally charged?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3945
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 MR . WHITE: Objection, your Honor.

2 THE COURT: Sustained.

3 A I wouldn't know.

4 THE COURT: Don't answer the question.

5 Q Did you begin working in cooperation with the

6 government in the investigation of the other company you

7 were working for?

8 A I don't understand the question.

9 Q Were you ever interviewed by any agent of the

10 government concerning the operations of the company you

11 went to work for after you left Who's Who Worldwide?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And --

14 THE COURT: Can we get the name of that company?

15 THE WITNESS: Communications Network.

16 THE COURT: The name of the company is

17 Communications Network?

18 THE WITNESS: Communications Network, Inc.

19 THE COURT: Company?

20 THE WITNESS: Communications Network, Inc.

21 THE COURT: All right.

22 Q Were you yourself ever charged with a crime there?

23 A No.
24 Q Were you yourself ever told that you might be a
25 target and charged with a crime in connection with that?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3946
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 A No.

2 Q Were you yourself told that you might be under

3 investigation?

4 A Yes, at that point, yes.

5 Q Now, when you testified in the grand jury in this

6 case -- withdrawn.

7 Did you ever testify at any grand jury concerning

8 Communications Network, whatever the name of that company

9 was, the other company?

10 A No.

11 Q And when you testified in the grand jury concerning

12 this case, Who's Who Worldwide you were told you had some

13 immunity; is that correct? That you were going to be

14 given some kind of immunity; is that correct?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Were also told that your immunity was limited to your

17 employment at Who's Who Worldwide, or words to that

18 effect? Do you recall that?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And were you told to confine your answers to

21 questions relating to Who's Who Worldwide, between the

22 period you first began to work there in August or

23 September 1992, up until the point of time that you let in
24 March of 1995?
25 A I am not sure that I understand the question.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3947
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 Q Sure.

2 MR. JENKS: Norman, slow down.

3 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.

4 Q Do you remember testifying before the grand jury in

5 Brooklyn on March 5th, 1997?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And the person who questioned you there was

8 Mr. White; is that correct?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q Do you recall Mr. White advising you that you would

11 be receiving immu nity for your testimony that day?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Indeed, after that you went outside to speak to your

14 attorney to have a further discussion with him, just to

15 the make sure you understood the nature of immunity; is

16 that correct?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q And then you came back into the grand jury room; is

19 that correct?

20 A That's correct.

21 Q And after that do you recall Mr. White asking you

22 this question, or this series of questions and you giving

23 this series of answers, and referring to
24 Government's Exhibit 7-A, among the 3500 material, at page
25 4, beginning at line 4.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3948
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 Question: All right. Let me also say at the

2 outset here that my questions today are just solely

3 related to your employment at Who's Who Worldwi de, and

4 they only relate to the time period that you were employed

5 there, which, I think, was from approximately 1992 to

6 March of '95.

7 Answer -- you speaking, yes, about that. No,

8 March of 1992?

9 Question: From a time in '92, to March of '95.

10 Answer: Yes, I guess it was about that question,

11 again, Mr. White speaking, so you can construe my

12 questions just to the refer to at that time period and

13 confine your answers to just what is relevant in that time

14 period, okay?

15 Answer: Yes.

16 Do you recall being given those questions and

17 giving those answers?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And before going into the grand jury room was it

20 explained to you that the immunity you would get would

21 only relate to answers that you gave to questions that

22 were put to you in the grand jury room?

23 A I don't understand.

2 4 Q Was it explained that you would get immunity, and
25 that the testimony you gave in the grand jury couldn't be

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3949
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 used against you? Was that explained to you?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Was it explained to you further that you just

4 couldn't blurt out something else that was not in response

5 to a question by Mr. White and get immunity from that just

6 by virtue of having said it?

7 A I do understand what you are asking.

8 Q Well, you didn't understand, did you, that when you

9 went into the grand jury room, you could write yourself a

10 blank check of immunity on anything you might have done

11 which might have been the subject of criminal charges, did

12 you?

13 A I still am not comprehending what you are asking.

14 Q Did Mr. White before you went into the grand jury

15 room tell you that there were certain things he wasn't

16 going to be asking you about?

17 A No.

18 Q Did Mr. White tell you that there were certain things

19 he wasn't going to be asking you about with regard to this

20 other company that you worked for that was in trouble?

21 A No. There was no discussion about that.

22 Q Did Mr. White tell you that you weren't supposed to

23 say anything about that other company that was under
24 investigation?
25 A No.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3950
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 Q At that point in time you had already spoken to the

2 agents concerning that other company, had you not?

3 A I believe I had.

4 Q Did your lawyer tell you that you shouldn't say

5 anything about that other company?

6 A No.

7 Q Yesterday you were asked certain questions con cerning

8 a company called Transnational; is that correct?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And through Transnational Who's Who Worldwide

11 obtained discounts for its members on Airborne Express; is

12 that right?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q And Who's Who Worldwide also obtained discounts for

15 its members on automobile insurance; is that right?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q And you were asked to look at contracts entered into

18 between Who's Who Worldwide and Transnational; is that

19 correct?

20 A That's correct.

21 Q And you were asked by Mr. White about the fact that

22 Who's Who Worldwide received under certain circumstances

23 one percent or two percent of the monies that were paid by
24 its members to these companies; is that correct?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3951
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 Q Now, under these contracts -- withdrawn.

2 Transnational, as you understand it is a separate

3 company from Airborne Express; is that correct?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And Transnational is a separate company from the

6 automobile insurance companies; is it not?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And you were also asked questions about telephone

9 usage. Was it also through Transnational?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And Transnational was completely separate from all

12 these companies who gave discounted services to the

13 members of Who's Who Worldwide?

14 A To my understanding.

15 Q Transnational is a business?

16 A Yes.

17 Q In business to make money?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Just like Who's Who Worldwide was?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And do the contracts say that Who's Who Worldwide is

22 to pay Transnational anything for its services?

23 A No.
24 Q Do you b elieve that Transnational was providing these
25 services and acting as a broker perhaps for Airborne

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3952
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 Express and other companies, do you have reason to believe

2 that Transnational was doing this for free?

3 A No.

4 Q And is it fair that Transnational was being paid by

5 Airborne Freight or the insurance company, whoever it was

6 brokering for, for Transnational to have obtained the

7 Who's Who account for them?

8 A I would feel so.

9 Q Did Who's Who Worldwide inquire of Transnational as

10 to how much it was being paid by Airborne Freight, how

11 much Transnational was being made by Airborne Freight?

12 A No.

13 Q Or the insurance company?

14 A No.

15 Q Or by Sprint?

16 A No.

17 Q Who's Who Worldwide didn't care?

18 A N o.

19 Q Is that fair to say?

20 A Very fair.

21 Q Who's Who Worldwide was not disturbed that

22 Transnational was concealing from it the fact that it was

23 obtaining money from Airborne Freight, was it?
24 MR. WHITE: Objection, concealing.
25 THE COURT: Overruled.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3953
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 A Concealing? I don't think it was an issue.

2 Q Now, did any members -- withdrawn.

3 In the course of your work at Who's Who Worldwide

4 did you have occasion to speak to members on the

5 telephone?

6 A On occasion, yes.

7 Q Did you ever have occasion to hear from other

8 employees who worked with you or for you about

9 conversations that they had with members on the telephone?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Did any of the members -- withdrawn.

12 Did any member ever ask you as to whether Who's

13 Who Worldwide was getting something about providing the

14 Airborne Freight discounted service.

15 MR. WHITE: Objection.

16 THE COURT: Overruled.

17 A I don't recall anyone asking.

18 Q Did you ever hear that any member of Who's Who

19 Worldwide was upset at the prospect that Who's Who

20 Worldwide might be getting one or two percent, and that

21 their discount should have been 42 percent or 41 percent

22 instead of 40 percent?

23 A No. I never heard anything like that.
24 Q Is it fair to say as far as you can tell no member of
25 Who's Who Worldwide cared?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3954
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 A Yeah.

2 Q Is it also fair to say that the arrangement that

3 Who's Who Worldwide had with Transnational was mutually

4 beneficial to the members as well as to W ho's Who

5 Worldwide; is that correct?

6 A Yes.

7 Q The members got a substantial discount over what they

8 would have had to pay. And Who's Who Worldwide got a

9 small percentage of that money; is that right?

10 A That's correct.

11 Q And the language deleted -- withdrawn.

12 You were shown some scripts yesterday; is that

13 correct?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And those were scripts prepared by Transnational; is

16 that correct?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And Transnational was a company whose business

19 involved speaking to people by telephone; is that correct?

20 A That's correct.

21 Q And they had people there who were especially --

22 whose job it was to talk to people by telephone; is that

23 correct?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q And Transnational, as far as you understood it,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORT ER
3955
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 prepared scripts for those people -- for the people who

2 spoke to the people on the telephone, correct?

3 A Correct.

4 Q The scripts had various things to say, correct?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Sometimes they would have different alternatives

7 depending on what the person being spoken to responded?

8 THE COURT: You have to slow down, Mr. Trabulus.

9 MR. TRABULUS: Sorry.

10 THE COURT: Do you want to repeat that question,

11 please?

12 MR. TRABULUS: Yes. I will get a drink of

13 water.

14 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

15 proceedings.)

16 Q Let me just go back a second.

17 Is it fair to say that insofar as you were

18 concerned, there was absolutely nothing wrong with Who's

19 Who Worldwide receiving money from Airborne Freight --

20 withdrawn -- from Transnational, in con nection with the

21 services that it brokered for members?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Now, Transnational provided scripts for Who's Who
24 Worldwide to review; is that correct?
25 A Correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3956
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 Q And those scripts were scripts which Transnational

2 prepared for its employees to use, correct?

3 A Correct.

4 Q And basically, those employees were telemarketers; is

5 that correct?

6 A I imagine, yes.

7 Q And they would talk to people on the telephone and

8 try to sell them on the idea of getting into one of these

9 discount programs?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Is that what was understood?

12 A Uh-huh.

13 Q Now, there was some language deleted from the

14 scripts; is that correct?

15 A Correct.

16 Q And that language suggested that the re would be a

17 donation to Who's Who Worldwide based upon the usage of

18 these discounted programs; is that correct?

19 A That's correct.

20 Q Or the monies would be a contribution to Who's Who

21 Worldwide, correct?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q To help it meets its goals and objectives; is that
24 correct?
25 A Correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3957
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 Q And is it your understanding that that type of

2 language is normally included where the company, the

3 company involved, or the entity involved, providing the

4 benefit to members, is a charity?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q And the idea is you want to let the people know they

7 are helping their clarity every time they send something

8 by Airborne Freight?

9 A That's right.

10 Q That would not apply to Who' s Who Worldwide, would

11 it?

12 A No.

13 Q And Who's Who Worldwide was a money making business?

14 A Absolutely.

15 Q Now, the scripts that were provided by Transnational,

16 they provided that the people who spoke over the telephone

17 to Who's Who Worldwide members and called them up,

18 inquiring about the discount programs, they provided that

19 those people, the telemarketers at Transnational, would

20 say certain things; is that correct?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q They contained sometimes different alternatives

23 depending on what the person on the other end of the
24 telephone said; is that correct?
25 A Correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3958
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 Q They contained things called closes; is that correct?

2 A Yes.

3 Q That's a kind of common term in the sales business,

4 correct?

5 A Yes.

6 Q That's a line you use either to close a deal or to

7 close a conversation; is that correct?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And they provided with a list of possible answers

10 that could be given in the event that a question was asked

11 by somebody who was being spoken to on the phone; is that

12 correct?

13 A Correct.

14 Q Now, there is nothing, as you understand it, there is

15 nothing wrong with doing that, is there, with having such

16 a script?

17 A I can't understand anything wrong with it.

18 Q Indeed, it helps insure accuracy on the part of the

19 people who are on the telephone, does it not?

20 A It does.

21 Q It insures consistency?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And it is something that should be done in every
24 business in which sales methods involve telephone sales;
25 is that correct?



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3959
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 A I don't know if I can make a blanket statement like

2 that. But I would say for consistency purposes, yes, if

3 there is a lot of points to be making.

4 Q If there are a lot of points and a lot of people

5 speaking over the telephone?

6 A Correct.

7 Q As opposed to one person selling things over the

8 telephone and has complete control of what he or her is

9 saying?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Now, is it correct that about a week or so before the

12 raid, the raid which resulted in your leaving Who's Who

13 Worldwide, there was a visit paid to the offices of

14 Sterling -- was it Sterling -- by Inspector Biegelman, or

15 was it the Lake Success office?

16 A No, it was the Sterling offices.

17 Q Were you there at the time?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And was M r. Gordon there at the time?

20 A Yes, he was.

21 Q Mr. Biegelman did not tell you or Mr. Gordon that he

22 had any complaint with the business of Who's Who Worldwide

23 or Sterling, did he?
24 A Not at all.
25 Q Who did he speak to first, to you or to Mr. Gordon?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3960
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 A Mr. Gordon asked me to initiate the phone call to

2 Mr. Biegelman.

3 Q Mr. Gordon asked you himself to call Inspector

4 Biegelman?

5 A That's right.

6 Q What was the purpose of the phone call to Inspector

7 Biegelman?

8 A It was twofold at that point. We had an employee who

9 had left and was diverting members' money to his home

10 saying he was a clearing house for Who's Who.

11 Q Is that Joe Parks?

12 A Yes, it was.

13 Q Continue.

14 A There was als o another Who's Who that had come about,

15 and Mr. Gordon had some concerns about that.

16 Q There was another Who's Who that had come about, and

17 Mr. Gordon had concerns that that Who's Who was giving

18 other Who's Whos, including his own, a bad name?

19 A That's correct.

20 Q And people might confuse what this other Who's Who

21 was doing with what his own business was doing; is that

22 correct?

23 A That is correct.
24 Q And blame on his business things that this other
25 Who's Who was doing, correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3961
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 A That's correct.

2 Q Is it the purpose of inviting a postal inspector

3 there was to explain that to the postal inspector; is that

4 correct?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q And Inspector Biegelman showed up; is that correct?

7 A Ins pector Biegelman and Inspector Pagano.

8 Q And did Mr. Gordon speak to them?

9 A Absolutely.

10 Q Did you speak to them?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Did Mr. Gordon talk about his own business?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Did he talk about their business -- excuse me, the

15 other businesses that he was complaining about?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And did Mr. Gordon show them around the facilities?

18 A Yes, he did.

19 Q Did he compare and contrast his business with what he

20 was complaining about in the other businesses?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Before these people came there to look around -- to

23 the telephone call, Mr. Gordon did not take anything off
24 the walls, did he?
25 A Not that I am aware of.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3962
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 Q He didn't warn the salespeople that they had been on

2 their best behavior, did he?

3 A I wouldn't know that.

4 Q As far as you know nothing like that was done. It

5 was simply a request that people from the government, law

6 enforcement people come, because Mr. Gordon had a

7 complaint to them -- made to the law enforcement people

8 about what other people were doing, doing something wrong;

9 is that correct?

10 A That's correct.

11 Q Now, you testified yesterday concerning nomination

12 ballots; is that correct?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And nomination ballots were ballots which were cards

15 that were sent in by members; is that correct?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q And on those cards they could list other people, who

18 they were proposing for membership in Who's Who Worldwide

19 or Sterling; is that right?

20 A That is correct.

21 Q And they would list the name of the person and

22 perhaps t heir business or phone number; is that correct?

23 A Correct.
24 Q And is it fair to say that before a nomination card
25 came in, Who's Who Worldwide would have no other

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 information, or even be aware of the existence of the

2 person on the nomination card, unless, perhaps, that

3 person happened to be on one of the mailing lists?

4 A That would be fair to say.

5 Q The mailing lists, which you were involved in

6 renting, they did not contain phone numbers, did they?

7 A No.

8 Q They contained names, addresses and titles and

9 information of that sort; is that correct?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And the mailing lists themselves, we call it mailing

12 lists, but they really weren't pieces of paper, were they?

13 A No, they were tapes.

14 Q When you say tapes, they were computer tapes?

15 A Yes, uh-huh.

16 Q They weren't physically on the premises of Who's Who

17 Worldwide?

18 A Prior to the mailing?

19 Q That's right.

20 A No. In some cases they were, if they were sent to

21 our office just to hold. We had no way of reading them.

22 Q Okay.

23 But if they were physically on the premises, you
24 have no way of reading them, they were just being
25 physically held there; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A Yes, uh-huh.

2 Q It would be the mailing company, or the mailing

3 houses that would read them; is that correct?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q And they would generate a set of labels, or whatever,

6 and so forth, and send the mail; is that correct?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Now, are you familiar with the procedures that were

9 utilized by the sales personnel in contacting a

10 prospective member whose name had been obtained from a

11 nomination ballot?

12 A The procedure used?

13 Q Yes.

14 A They were giving them out as lead cards.

15 Q So, in that event, the salesperson would call the

16 person whose name was on the nomination ballot; is that

17 correct?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q Is it the person who would be called would not

20 previously have received anything in writing from Who's

21 Who Worldwide; is that correct?

22 A Unless they were on a mailing list.

23 Q Unless they also happened to be on a mailing list?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A That's correct.

2 Q And is it fair to say that if somebody received a

3 telephone call first before receiving anything in writing

4 from Who's Who Worldwide, it is fair to say that that

5 person would be somebody whose name had come from a

6 nomination ballot?

7 A That would be fair.

8 Q Now, you have seen lead cards, have you not?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And you were shown some yesterday; is that correct?

11 A Uh-huh.

12 Q Mr. White showed them to you; is that correct?

13 A Uh-huh.

14 Q And they had little codes on them; is that correct?

15 A Uh-huh, yes.

16 Q And the ones you saw were filled out with somebody's

17 name on them; is that correct?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And had you ever seen some that were blank?

20 A Yes.

21 Q In fact, were there not blank leads cards maintained

22 on the premises of Who's Who Worldwide?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And was one of the things that Mr. Gordon asked you
25 to do, was to have the people working for you to go

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 through various publications, the Wall Street Journal, and

2 things of that sort and see the names of people who had

3 been promoted?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And those people would sometimes be sent a

6 solicitation letter and a lead card; is that correct?

7 A Yes. In a few cases, yes.

8 Q And those lead cards -- withdrawn.

9 When the lead cards were printed up, they were

10 all printed up with some sort of code on them; is that

11 correct?

12 A Yes.

13 Q You never saw a lead cards that was blank in terms of

14 not having any code?

15 A There may have been one that we had that didn't have

16 a code on it.

17 Q There may have been, but you are not certain?

18 A Not certain.

19 Q And the le ad cards sent out to these people who were

20 nominated -- withdrawn.

21 Who were selected from publications or trade

22 journals or whatever, they may have had codes on them?

23 A They may have.
24 Q You are not sure?
25 A I am not 100 percent sure.

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1 Q Basically there would be a certain percent of blank

2 lead cards that would be obtained from the company that

3 printed them, that would be kept in-house; is that

4 correct?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Now, do you know whether or not after the salespeople

7 contacted somebody whose name had come from a nomination

8 ballot or whose phone number came from a nomination

9 ballot, after making that initial phone call, do you know

10 after that if a letter and a lead card would sometimes be

11 sent to one of tho se people?

12 A I don't understand what you are asking. In other

13 words --

14 Q I will withdraw the question and rephrase it.

15 We are talking now about a situation, in which we

16 have a prospective member who has been nominated, okay?

17 A Uh-huh.

18 Q Are you with me?

19 A Yes, I am with you.

20 Q And that person's phone number has been derived from

21 a nomination ballot, correct?

22 A Yes.

23 Q A salesperson calls that person up and speaks to them
24 concerning Who's Who Worldwide.
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q And that person has not previously received anything

2 in writing from Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And are you aware whether in such a situation, after

5 an indication of interest from that person, a l etter and

6 leader card would have been sent to the person nominated

7 on the nomination ballot?

8 A I don't believe so.

9 Q Do you know for a fact one way or the other?

10 A Do I know for a fact one way or another? No, I

11 wouldn't --

12 Q Would that be something within your department?

13 A I would presume it would be.

14 Q It would be? Not something within administration?

15 A It may have been at that point. I don't know how

16 that was handled.

17 Q Okay.

18 So, if we had a situation in which a prospective

19 member was first contacted by telephone and only

20 afterwards received the lead card, would that suggest to

21 you that that person had actually been nominated, and then

22 after a conversation with a telephone -- withdrawn.

23 Would that suggest to you that that person's name
24 had actually come from a nomination ballot, and aft er an
25 initial telephone call, a blank lead card was mailed to

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 that person?

2 MR. WHITE: Objection.

3 THE COURT: Sustained.

4 Q Now, I think yesterday you testified about a trip

5 that had been proposed and planned for to Vietnam and Hong

6 Kong?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q And the name of the company through which this was to

9 be done was a company owned by a man named Paul Elmstrom?

10 A That's correct.

11 MR. TRABULUS: Do you have Exhibit 41-E, I

12 believe?

13 MR. WHITE: What was it?

14 (Counsel confer.)

15 Q While they are looking for that, let me ask you, you

16 say there were 50,000 brochures made available from --

17 A It was a large quantity of brochures.

18 Q Was this, these brochures with the name Who's Who on

19 them?

20 A Yes.

21 Q These were provided you say free of charge by the

22 company putting together the tour?

23 A Yes.
24 Q 50,000 brochures?
25 A I am not sure of the quantity. It was a large

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 quantity they provided.

2 Q And there was no charge at all for the 50,000

3 brochures; is that correct?

4 A Yes.

5 Q You say Mr. Gordon didn't want to have a separate

6 mailing for these brochures because of the cost; is that

7 correct?

8 A There was a big cost.

9 Q Postage cost?

10 A Yes.

11 Q There were mailings made in new member packets; is

12 that correct?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And is it also not the case that the salespeople were

15 directed to call up existing members and advise them of

16 them?

17 A I would have no knowledge.

18 Q You would have no way to know, one way or the other?

19 A No.

20 Q The cost of mailing approximately 50,000 brochures,

21 would that be approximately $20,000 at bulk mailing rates?

22 A Somewhere around there.

23 Q Now, I am going to show you what I believe is not in
24 evidence, but for identification as 41-E.
25 (Handed to the witness.)

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q Do you recognize it?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Take a look at the other side, too? The back of it.

4 You can take it out of the sheet. It is one sheet, I

5 believe. And look at it carefully.

6 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

7 proceedings.)

8 Q Do you recognize 41-E?

9 A Yes, I do.

10 Q What is 41-E.

11 A It was a membership update, p rograms and services

12 that were coming up or events that were going to be

13 happening.

14 Q When you say it went out to the members, to which

15 members did it go out?

16 A Who's Who Worldwide members.

17 Q All of them?

18 A I believe it did.

19 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I don't believe it is

20 in evidence at this point. I offer it in evidence.

21 THE COURT: I object?

22 MR. GEDULDIG: Can I see it, Judge?

23 MR. SCHOER: Norman, it is in evidence as
24 Defendant's Exhibit J. J is in evidence. It is the same
25 thing.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I am informed it is in

2 evidence as Defendant's Exhibit J. I was not aware of

3 that.

4 THE COURT: There is a J, for Jack, in evidence.

5 I don't know what it is. I have a list o f benefits, in my

6 unofficial list.

7 MR. TRABULUS: It appears to be a photocopy of

8 this.

9 THE COURT: If it is in as J for Jack, you don't

10 need it, right?

11 MR. TRABULUS: I don't need it.

12 THE COURT: As 41-E, for Easy, you don't need

13 it.

14 MR. GEDULDIG: Judge, I am going to make a

15 request. It is in as Defendant's Exhibit J. It is also

16 marked as a Government's Exhibit, 41-E. As a packet

17 relating to the witness Spencer who testified earlier,

18 your Honor, that's how it is indicated. If it is going to

19 go in evidence, I would move to have the document marked

20 jointly Defendant's Exhibit J, Government's Exhibit 41-E.

21 THE COURT: You want it in as 41-E, as well as

22 under J, is that correct?

23 MR. GEDULDIG: Correct.
24 THE COURT: Any objection?
25 MR. WHITE: No, except Mr. Spencer testified he



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 didn't recall seeing this. But I have no objection to its

2 admission.

3 THE COURT: All right. Government's Exhibit 41-E

4 in evidence.

5 (Government's Exhibit 41-E received in evidence.)

6 Q Now, Ms. Benjamin, I am going to be showing you

7 this. And this document lists various upcoming events and

8 offers to members; is that correct?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q And this was sent out before the events that were

11 listed in it were to occur?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q I would like you to read to the jury the portion that

14 says Who's Who Worldwide business conferences, that

15 paragraph.

16 A The first Who's Who Worldwide business conference is

17 departing Los Angeles --

18 THE COURT: You have to go slower, much slower.

19 THE WITNESS : I am sorry.

20 You got it to Los Angeles?

21 THE COURT: It never fails, everybody who

22 reads --

23 JUROR NO. 4: Except me.
24 THE COURT: Except me.
25 Reads faster than they speak.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Ms. Benjamin speaks in a very modulated and easy

2 to hear tone. But when she reads she accelerates. Now, I

3 am going to do a study on that, as I said, after I retire.

4 However, since I do not intend to ever retire,

5 and I am appointed for life, I don't know when I am going

6 to do this study.

7 You may proceed.

8 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

9 On December 28th, for Hong Kong and Vietnam.

10 Enjoy deluxe accommodations, fine dining and informative

11 business meetings, all for $3,285 per person.

12 Q Thank you.

13 A Do you want me to finish t he paragraph?

14 Q Yes.

15 A All right.

16 Due to the special reduced price this conference

17 is for Who's Who Worldwide members and their guests only.

18 Q Now, that went out to all Who's Who Worldwide members

19 at the time, as far as you know; is that correct?

20 A As far as I know, yes.

21 Q And so, when Mr. Gordon rejected the idea of a

22 separate 20,000 mailing of brochures that were furnished

23 by the company, there already was a mailing announcing
24 this program to people, correct?
25 A I imagine, yeah, at that time.

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1 Q And it wasn't that he didn't want people not to know

2 about it?

3 A Oh, no.

4 Q Far from it. Is that correct that he expressed to

5 you his desire that people go on this?

6 A Absolutely.

7 Q No w, at the time that that was sent out to the

8 members, is it fair to say that everything in there

9 concerning that Vietnam and Hong Kong trip was true?

10 A Yes.

11 Q It was being planned exactly as it is being shown

12 here; is that correct?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Now, this particular trip -- withdrawn.

15 There is an 800 number there, is there not,

16 listed in connection with that?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And that 800 number is not an 800 number at Who's Who

19 Worldwide, was it?

20 A No.

21 Q It was at Mr. Elmstrom's company?

22 A Mr. Elmstrom's tour operating office.

23 Q Is it fair to say that all the arrangements to be
24 made by any member who wanted to go on this would have to
25 be made through Mr. Elmstrom's company?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A That's correct.

2 Q Is it the payment would go to Mr. Elmstrom's company;

3 is that correct?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q And this was different from the Hilton Head

6 conference in that it was a piggyback; is that correct?

7 A Yes. That's correct.

8 Q And the trip -- the seminar was going to occur

9 regardless of whether anybody from Who's Who Worldwide

10 went along on this; is that correct?

11 A That's correct.

12 THE COURT: Which one are you referring to?

13 MR. TRABULUS: The Vietnam and Hong Kong trip.

14 THE COURT: Ms. Benjamin, in this notice it

15 says: Is departing Los Angeles on December 28th. Do you

16 know what year that was?

17 THE WITNESS: I believe that was '93. I am not

18 100 percent -- I am terrible with dates.

19 THE COURT: Your best recollection is that it was

20 1993?

21 THE WITNESS: I would think so, yes.

22 THE COURT: All right.

23 Q This trip was going to occur regardless of whether
24 anybody from Who's Who Worldwide went along, so long as
25 the American Bar Association didn't cancel it; is that

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 correct?

2 A That's correct.

3 Q And is it your understanding that the American Bar

4 Association trip did occur?

5 A Yes.

6 Q So, the plane did leave to go to the conference; is

7 that correct?

8 A As far as I know.

9 Q Now, this was a benefit that was offered to the

10 members, was it not?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And it is true that the benefit was provided,

13 correct?

14 A It was offered.

15 Q It was actually provided, but just that the members

16 did not avail themselves of that?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Was the purpose to orient members of Who's Who

19 Worldwide on the local laws of the countries being

20 visited, to meet with officials of the country? Were

21 those among the purposes?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And to facilitate import and export type dealings
24 between members -- between these countries?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q It was a business type trip more than a vacation type

2 trip that was being planned?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And it was arranged by and on behalf of Who's Who

5 Worldwide; is that correct?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And as far as you know -- withdrawn.

8 I believe you testified that if more than a

9 certain number of people from Who's Who Worldwide signed

10 up, Who's Who Worldwide could have received a free trip

11 from one of its staff people; is that correct?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Who could have been able to accompany the members; is

14 that correct?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And if -- I suppose if double the amount would have

17 signed up perhaps two free trips would have been obtained,

18 something like that?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And is it also correct that because of the piggyback

21 nature of this, there was no minimum number of Who's Who

22 Worldwide people who had to seen up to go?

23 A Minimum number?
24 Q There was no minimum number. If only one Who's Who
25 Worldwide person signed up they would have been able to

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 go; is that correct?

2 A I imagine they could have, yes.

3 Q And in that event Who's Who Worldwide would not have

4 obtained a free trip; is that correct?

5 A I don't remember what the breakdown w as for the free

6 trips.

7 Q Certainly, Who's Who Worldwide was not going to be

8 given a three $3,200 trip to Vietnam and Hong Kong simply

9 because one of its members signed up for a $3,200 trip?

10 A Yes.

11 Q So, in terms of -- as you sit here today, do you in

12 fact know that none of the people -- withdrawn.

13 As you sit here today you know that Who's Who

14 Worldwide was not given a free trip; is that correct?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q And as you sit here today, do you in fact know

17 whether some member of Who's Who Worldwide members, be it

18 one, two or three, less than the number required to

19 establish the free trip went on this trip? Do you know

20 for a fact?

21 A Well, Mr. Elmstrom told me nobody from Who's Who

22 Worldwide signed up.

23 Q When was that?
24 A Right before --
25 Q There was no deadline, somebody coul d have signed up

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 right before; is that correct?

2 A I don't know. There were visas and things like that

3 involved.

4 Q Is it not true that as far as Who's Who Worldwide had

5 done, it had done everything that it could to facilitate

6 members going on this trip?

7 A Yes.

8 Q It had provided the benefit; is that correct?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And the members did not avail themselves of it,

11 correct?

12 A Correct.

13 Q Now, when you were first hired at Who's Who

14 Worldwide, is it fair to say that dealing with the mailing

15 lists was not your principal responsibility?

16 A Correct.

17 Q In fact, you were hired specifically to run the

18 member benefit programs; is that correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And I think you testified yesterday that when you

21 first began working there, the benefits were limited; is

22 that correct?

23 A Correct.
24 Q You were hired because Mr. Gordon had decided that
25 there were going to be more benefits, and they were going

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 to be expanding, and he needed somebody to be in charge of

2 that; is that correct?

3 A Correct.

4 Q So, it was his idea to expand the benefits over what

5 they were at the point when you were hired rather than

6 your idea; is that correct?

7 A It was mutual in terms of taking on more of an

8 association type persona.

9 Q Is it your testimony that before you were at Who's

10 Who Worldwide, there was simply a publishing company which

11 published a book rather than a membership organization?

12 A To my perception ?

13 Q Well, no, not your perception.

14 Before you began working at Who's Who Worldwide,

15 was Who's Who Worldwide a membership organization, as far

16 as you know?

17 A I don't really know if it was a membership

18 organization at that point.

19 Q Certainly, it was not your suggestion that it be a

20 membership organization, was it?

21 A I felt that it should take on more of an interactive

22 role.

23 Q And, indeed, Mr. Gordon felt that way, too, and
24 that's why he hired you; is that correct?
25 A Yes.

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1 MR. TRABULUS: May I have the binder that has

2 Exhibit 243 in it?

3 MR. SCHOER: Your Honor, may we take a break

4 now? I have to go to the bathroom.

5 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we will take a

6 ten-minute recess now, please do not discuss the case, and

7 please recess yourselves.

8 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the

9 courtroom.)

10

11 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)

12

13 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the

14 courtroom.)

15 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the

16 jury.

17 You may proceed, Mr. Trabulus.

18 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.

19 Q Before we get back to what I was asking you about,

20 let me ask you, was there ever a time that Maria Gaspar

21 told you that you were being listed as having attended a

22 meeting that didn't exist?

23 A Not that I remember.
24 Q Was there ever a time you were together with Suzanne
25 Konopka and Tracey Colletti and Maria Gaspar came up to

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 you and said, just so you know, you were at a certain

2 place on a certain date? Do you recall anything like

3 that?

4 A I don't recall any such conversation.

5 Q When was it that you found -- withdrawn.

6 Mr. White showed you Exhibit 643, a set of logs

7 about the Hummingbird Road and the penthouse apartment.

8 And he asked you about certain items showing your name at

9 non-existing meetings; do you recall that?

10 A Yes.

11 Q When was the first time you saw those logs?

12 A These logs?

13 Q The ones that Mr. White showed you?

14 A I believe it was at the grand jury.

15 Q Okay.

16 When was the first time that you heard that your

17 name appeared in logs for meetings that didn't happen?

18 A I guess it was at the same time.

19 (Counsel confer.)

20 Q Now, I am showing you Exhibit 243 in evidence. And

21 that's one of the solicitation letters you identifi ed; is

22 that correct.

23 (Handed to the witness.)
24 A Yes.
25 Q And this is one of the solicitation letters sent out

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 before you came to be with Who's Who Worldwide; is that

2 right?

3 The date is December 10th, 1990?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Is that right?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And that's more than a year before you first came to

8 work at Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And this letter refers to the recipient as a possible

11 member listee; is that correct?

12 A A member, dash, listee.

13 Q Is that correct that even as early as December 10th,

14 1990, as far as you can tell, Who's Who Worldwide was a

15 membership organization?

16 A The terminology is in the letter.

17 Q The -- withdrawn.

18 Are you familiar with the registries ever

19 published?

20 A Yes.

21 Q At the back of the registries there is a section,

22 listees; is that correct?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And the listees are people who were not joined as
25 members; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A Yes.

2 Q They paid nothing; is that correct?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And they were still listed; is that correct?

5 A Yes.

6 Q There was less information given about them than the

7 people who were members; is that correct?

8 A Yes.

9 Q It still had their name, title and their business

10 address; is that correct?

11 A Yes, I believe so, yes.

12 Q In each book there were perhaps a thousand or so?

13 A Yes.

14 Q These people agreed to be listed, but declined to

15 p urchase a membership or a directory; is that correct?

16 A I imagine, yeah.

17 Q Is it your understanding -- withdrawn.

18 Did there come a point in time when you traveled

19 to California with Mr. Gordon and with Tara Garboski?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And that was for business purposes, was it not?

22 A Yes, it was.

23 Q And that was for the purposes of obtaining space in
24 California for a business location there?
25 A That's correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q And while he was there, Mr. Gordon actually

2 interviewed people as prospective employees there; is that

3 correct?

4 A I believe so, yes.

5 Q Now, in fact, there was a lease that was actually

6 prepared, although not signed for a particular premises;

7 is that correct?

8 A That's correct.

9 Q A ll right.

10 And several things presented that from happening;

11 is that correct? There was an earthquake; is that

12 correct, Ms. Benjamin?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And Mr. Gordon's son died?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And eventually there was -- down the road there was

17 the government raid; is that correct?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Are you familiar with the company known as Registry

20 Publishing?

21 A Registry Publishing?

22 Q Registry Publishing. One of the companies -- do you

23 recall the name, Registry Publishing?
24 A No.
25 Q Do you recall that there was to be a separate,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 although affiliated company that was to run, the

2 California operation?

3 A No.

4 Q Did Mr. Gordon discuss that with you?

5 A No.

6 Q One way or the other?

7 A No.

8 Q He didn't necessarily discuss with you the corporate

9 structure of the businesses; is that correct?

10 A That's correct.

11 Q All right.

12 Now, you were shown some orders yesterday for

13 mailing lists, orders placed by Who's Who Worldwide; is

14 that correct?

15 A Yes, correct.

16 Q All right.

17 Is it correct that sometimes Who's Who Worldwide

18 would order mailing lists that were to be used for test

19 marketing; is that correct?

20 A Yes, that's correct.

21 Q And when we say test marketing, it is for use for

22 something other than Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?

23 A I don't know.
24 Q Are you familiar with the company, Williams Who's
25 Who?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A Yes.

2 Q Is that anoth er type of Who's Who company that

3 Mr. Gordon was contemplating starting?

4 A Yes.

5 Q It was to be different than Who's Who Worldwide; is

6 that correct?

7 A Yes.

8 Q The people in it were not to be the same level of

9 achievement; is that correct?

10 A Yes.

11 Q A lower level of achievement?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And it was test marketed?

14 A Yes, it was.

15 Q A mailing was sent out to see whether or not people

16 would be interested in that?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Was that utilizing mailing list that were paid for

19 and obtained by Who's Who Worldwide?

20 A They were obtained by us, yes.

21 Q All right.

22 When you were shown a set of mailing list --

23 withdrawn.
24 Yesterday Mr. White directed your attention to
25 various mailing lists, or orders that were placed; is that

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, C P, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 correct?

2 A Yes, correct.

3 Q And some of them were segmented to be just CEOs or

4 top executives; is that correct?

5 A Yes, correct.

6 Q All right.

7 There was another to I think U.S. News and World

8 Reports; is that correct?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And another was to Working Women; correct?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Do you know whether or not the U.S. News and World

13 Reports one was used for test marketing and other

14 publications?

15 A I don't know offhand.

16 Q The same with Working Women, do you know offhand?

17 A Not offhand.

18 Q Is it fair to say that Who's Who Worldwide mailing

19 lists in general were targeted to high level executives?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Business owners?

22 A Yes, I would say that's correct.

23 Q As far as you know did Mr. Gordon ever seek to have
24 the word "owner" deleted from any directory?
25 A Owner?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q Owner.

2 A No.

3 Q Not at all? He had no problem with the word "owner"

4 appearing in the directory; is that correct?

5 A I don't think so.

6 Q Yesterday you testified that -- withdrawn.

7 Is it correct that Wendi Springer would from time

8 to time come to you and ask you whether or not certain

9 people were qualified to be members?

10 A Yes, on occasion.

11 Q Is it fair to say as you understand it, she would do

12 that more frequently with Mr. Gordon?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And is it fair to say that Mr. Gordon would

15 frequently say to her, no, they are not qualified?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And those people would not be included?

18 A I don't know how it was handled at that stage, but I

19 know that he did reject quite a few.

20 Q Now, do you know whether -- withdrawn.

21 I think you testified in a question to

22 Mr. Wallenstein that Mr. Gordon knew everything going on

23 in the country -- in the company; is that correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And certainly he made it a point to keep himself

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 apprised of everything going on in the company as he

2 could?

3 A Yes.

4 Q He couldn't be everywhere at the same time; is that

5 correct?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And he couldn't speak to everyone at the same time,

8 could he?

9 A Of course.

10 Q If Wendi Springer chose not to bring a particular

11 card to Mr. Gordon as to whether that person was

12 qualified, do you know if that card would get to

13 Mr. Gordon?

14 MR. WHITE: Objection.

15 THE COURT: Overruled.

16 Q You can answer.

17 A In other words, if she didn't go to Mr. Gordon with

18 it and just used her own --

19 Q Judgment.

20 A Would it ever get to him?

21 Q Would he have occasion to review it himself, do you

22 know?

23 A Not usually.
24 Q Were there other people besides Wendi Springer who
25 also reviewed cards for qualifications?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 A In reality the, from what I understand the group

2 leaders and salespeople looked at the cards first.

3 Q Were there other people who exercised the function

4 comparable to Wendi Springer's at her level in terms of

5 reviewing cards --

6 A Yes.

7 Q -- at her stage?

8 A Reviewing membership app lications?

9 Q Yes.

10 A Yes.

11 Q And that is after they had already gone through the

12 sales people; is that correct?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And so, she wasn't the only one who did that; is that

15 correct?

16 A I don't think she was.

17 Q Who were some of the others who did it?

18 A It was other girls in administration.

19 Q Can you tell me some of their names?

20 A Christina, I believe, I don't know if she edited, but

21 I believe Christina, maybe Doreen, most of the girls who

22 did the order entry.

23 Q They would also from time to time ask Mr. Gordon if
24 someone was qualified or not; is that correct?
25 A Once in a while, yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 Q If he felt they were not qualified, he would say no;

2 is that correct?

3 A That is correct.

4 Q And if they made a mistake -- withdrawn.

5 Again, if one of those, maybe Wendy or one of the

6 other people decided on their own to let a card go through

7 and not bring it to Mr. Gordon's attention, would he know

8 at that point as to whether that person would be given a

9 membership?

10 A No.

11 Q It would only come to him through one of those

12 people; is that correct?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Mr. Gordon, of course, gave people instructions that

15 he didn't want certain types of people in the Who's Who

16 Worldwide Registry; is that correct?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And people who would -- who had no need for a

19 Registry that would be or might be used for business

20 networking; is that correct?

21 A Yes.

22 Q In other words, he might tell -- were you at sales

23 meetings where he would say he didn't want teachers or
24 th at type of position, correct? Do you recall that?
25 A Not teachers specifically. But, yes, there were --

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 Q And would it basically be not that the people he was

2 talking about, that there was something wrong with them,

3 but that there were people that there might not -- people

4 who might not have a need for a business networking

5 directory?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Mr. Gordon would also tell salespeople not to lie; is

8 that correct?

9 A Yes.

10 Q He would tell them if they would lie, they were

11 fired; is that correct?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And people were fired for lying; is that correct?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Walda, W A L D A, Sue, S U E, Mantell, M A N T E L L,

16 was one of them?

17 A I wouldn't know the reason for her termination, but I

18 know he was adamant about people, you know, sticking with

19 their pitch.

20 Q He would tell them that they had to stick with the

21 pitch, or to the sales presentation which he had approved;

22 is that correct?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And he would sometimes say that that was just like
25 IBM which did the same kind of thing with its salespeople,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 right? Do you recall that?

2 A Yeah.

3 Q Do you recall hearing him say that the people at IBM

4 wanted to make sure that their salespeople at the same

5 time they were selling a computer, weren't promising to

6 deliver a Cadillac along with it? Would he say that?

7 A Yes.

8 Q He wanted to make sure that the sales people didn't

9 say something that would be untrue; is that correct?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Now, you testified that there was a time that you

12 heard Mr. Gordon telling Wendi Springer that the words

13 "assistant" and "associate" would be dropped from titles?

14 A In some cases, yes.

15 Q Now, if I were to tell you that Wendi Springer said,

16 not that "associate" was to be dropped, but "assistant" to

17 be changed to "associate", would that --

18 MR. WHITE: Objection.

19 THE COURT: I didn't hear the end of the

20 questions. Would you want to repeat that, please.

21 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.

22 Q Would your testimony change on that if I were to tell

23 you that Wendi Springer testified that the change was from
24 "assistant" to "associate" as opposed to dropping
25 "associate"?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 MR. WHITE: Objection.

2 THE COURT: What ground?

3 MR. W HITE: It is not proper for one witness to

4 ask about the accuracy of another witness' testimony.

5 THE COURT: It is an interesting question. I

6 heard that from time to time. Generally I will agree with

7 you. I will sustain the objection. Not always, but

8 generally. I can think of some occasions where that could

9 be used, but not now.

10 Q As you sit here today, are you certain that what you

11 heard was that assistant and associate were both to be

12 dropped, as opposed to assistant being changed to

13 associate?

14 A I am certain of the one instance where it was done in

15 my presence.

16 Q In one instance?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And was that for consistency, so that --

19 A I don't know the reason at that point.

20 Q Were there instances where attorneys were listed as

21 assistant and changed to associates? Were you aware of

22 that?

23 A Attorneys?
24 Q Yes.
25 A No, I am not aware of that.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q All right.

2 Certainly, there was no wholesale change through

3 the directory in which all references to assistant or

4 associates were deleted, were there?

5 A No.

6 Q And there are many listings for people as either

7 assistants or associates; is that correct?

8 A If it is pertinent to their title, I would think so.

9 Q The annual budget for Tribute Magazine was

10 approximately $60,000?

11 A There wasn't an established budget per se, but it was

12 an expensive magazine to produce.

13 Q Leaving aside the issue as to whether there was a

14 budget for it, is it fair to say that it cost about

15 60,000 -- excuse me, $600,000 a year to produce it?

16 A I am not sure of ex actly the figures that it cost to

17 produce right now.

18 Q All right.

19 Yesterday you testified that Tribute was your

20 idea.

21 A Yes.

22 Q Is it your testimony that you simply suggested to

23 Mr. Gordon that there be a glossy magazine that would cost
24 something along the nature of an expensive project, and he
25 simply agreed to it like that?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A No, no.

2 Q Is it not a fact that he had been thinking for a long

3 time about a publication for members?

4 A I can't -- I can't testify as to what he was

5 thinking.

6 Q Is it also -- are you aware that at the time you were

7 hired Who's Who Worldwide had -- was just going into a

8 much greater point of profitability?

9 A The company seemed to be growing tremendously at that

10 point.

11 Q Are you aware that it is income in the years '90 and

12 '91, was considerably less than the year '92?

13 A I have no knowledge of that.

14 Q Are you aware that one of the reasons that you were

15 hired was to provide benefits for members was because at

16 the point that you were hired Who's Who Worldwide was now

17 doing well enough to expand the benefits that were being

18 offered?

19 A I don't know.

20 Q But you certainly were hired to provide benefits to

21 members; is that correct?

22 A Yes. To help with the marketing of the company.

23 Q At the time that you stopped working for Who's Who
24 Worldwide, at the time of the raid, were there other
25 benefits for members that were in the works?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 A At that point, yes.

2 Q C an you tell the jury what some of those other

3 benefits were?

4 A I don't remember offhand, but I know I was working on

5 a few other projects.

6 Q Was one of the projects health insurance?

7 A Well, we had inquired about health insurance, yes.

8 Q The problem is that there were different state

9 regulations?

10 A That's correct.

11 Q And something that you wanted to make available to

12 members?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And you were going to do it if you could get over the

15 regulatory problems?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q Were there different issues of Tribute being planned

18 at the time of the raid?

19 A Yes. We were right at the closing of an issue.

20 Q And that one never came out; is that correct?

21 A Yes.

22 Q There were other benefits besides health insurance

23 that was in the works being contemplated for the members;

24 is that correct?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4000
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 Q Now, you testified yesterday about a conversation

2 that you had with Mr. Gordon concerning the use of the

3 word nomination; do you recall that?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And specifically you testified they took out a

6 dictionary and he told you that nomination means selected

7 or chosen; is that correct?

8 A Yes.

9 Q All right.

10 He was trying to convince you that he was right;

11 is that correct?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And he didn't tell you that he thought that he was

14 wrong in this, did he?

15 A No.

16 Q He believed, as far as you could tell, that the use

17 of "nomination" in the solicitation letters was

18 appropriate?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Is that correct?

21 A Yes.

22 Q All right.

23 Did there come a point in time that he showed you
24 a letter which used the word "nomination" as to him, that
25 had been received from Who's Who in America?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 A Yes.

2 Q I will show you Defendant's Exhibit Z for

3 Identification.

4 (Handed to the witness.)

5 Q Is that the letter?

6 A Yes.

7 Q He showed that to you?

8 A Uh-huh.

9 THE COURT: Is that yes?

10 THE WITNESS: Yes. I am sorry.

11 Q In the conversations you had with him concerning the

12 use of the word nomination, did he tell you that he had

13 heard testimony in the lawsuit involving Who's Who

14 Worldwide and Reed Elsevir Company concerning Marqui's'

15 use of "nomination"?

16 A I don't recall that conversation.

17 Q Do you recall hi m telling you that he learned --

18 withdrawn.

19 The letter in front of you is the one that

20 nominated Mr. Gordon for --

21 MR. WHITE: Objection.

22 Is Mr. Trabulus going to summarize it for us

23 before it is in evidence?
24 MR. TRABULUS: I will offer it in evidence.
25 THE COURT: Any objection?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 MR. WHITE: Yes, I object.

2 THE COURT: Can I see it, please?

3 (Handed to the Court.)

4 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, may I ask a few more

5 questions?

6 THE COURT: Yes.

7 Q Did Mr. Gordon tell you that he had learned in the

8 course of that lawsuit that Marquis Who's Who used mailing

9 lists?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And did he tell you that Marquis Who's Who utilized

12 letters which said that people had been nominated?

13 A I believe he did mention that.

14 Q And did he mention -- did he show you this letter --

15 well, the judge has it in front of him -- and give that as

16 an example of a letter that Marquis Who's Who used?

17 A He showed me letters that there were a number of

18 people doing mailings.

19 Q And did he tell you that Marquis Who's Who itself

20 used the word "nomination" in describing the process by

21 which somebody was selected, even though that person might

22 have been selected from a mailing list?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And did he tell you that that was one of his reasons
25 for saying it was okay to do that?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A Yes.

2 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I would offer that.

3 THE COURT: I assume you are not offering it for

4 the truth?

5 MR. TRABULUS: No. It goes to Mr. Gordon's state

6 of mind.

7 THE COURT: Any objection?

8 MR. WHITE: Yes, your Honor, I do have an

9 objection.

10 THE COURT: All right. Come up.

11

12 (Whereupon, at this time the following took place

13 at the sidebar.)

14 MR. WHITE: My objection is this, your Honor: If

15 it is not offered for the truth of it and Mr. Gordon's

16 state of mind, I understand that. He is free to elicit

17 evidence bearing on his state of mind.

18 I don't mean to reargue what your Honor has

19 already decided, but the government is ending up here

20 fighting with one hand tied behind its back, because

21 Mr. Trabulus is trying to elicit that Mr. Gordon found out

22 things from the other litigation, found out this stuff.

23 It is a one-way door swinging to his side. He is trying
24 to bring out all these things to show it is okay to show

25 people were nominated although it came from mailing lists,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 when we have the most definitive pronouncement of all,

2 Judge Jordan's decision saying it is not. It seems to be

3 completely distorting the process. They are only hearing

4 one side of the story about what Mr. Gordon heard.

5 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I most respectfully

6 disagree. Mr. Gordon received that, or indicated he

7 received that in 1989. The issues involved in Magistrate

8 Jordan's decision is far more complicated as to the simple

9 issue as to whether one can say "nomination" with respect

10 to the mailing lists. I don't believe it is a distortion.

11 THE COURT: I don't think it is a distortion at

12 all. I don't believe the government has one hand tied

13 behind their back.

14 The gove rnment chose to bring this elaborate and

15 expensive prosecution. The government says that these

16 people committed a criminal fraud by saying that people

17 were nominated. That's the guts of the case. That's it.

18 Now, you might have a little Vietnam trip throne

19 in here and there. I am not talking about the other

20 charges, the obstruction, the tax counts. I am talking

21 about the mail fraud. This is it.

22 I could not preclude this from going in. This is

23 evidence of state of mind, that he saw something that
24 another company told him, told him he was nominated when
25 in fact he was not nominated, as you, the government,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 thinks he should have been nominated.

2 In other words, this is very important evidence.

3 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, again, my position all

4 along has not been that the defense should be precluded

5 from bringing that in. Again, I don't mean to reargue

6 things. But there is certainly a way that we can simplify

7 Magistrate Jordan's decision to explain to the jury that

8 at some point Mr. Gordon was told, without getting into

9 the legalese, that the company was ordered to do this.

10 THE COURT: Only one problem. That's a civil

11 copyright case. The standards are different. The points

12 of law are different. Everything is different.

13 Not only that, but it is unduly prejudicial in my

14 opinion, because the jury might think because one judge

15 already found this, how could they not do it? So that's

16 why I kept it out.

17 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, can I at least propose

18 this, and maybe -- I don't know if your Honor has an open

19 mind on this or not --

20 THE COURT: I have an open mind on everything.

21 MR. WHITE: Okay.

22 THE COURT: Including this expensive criminal

23 prosecution.
24 MR. WHITE: What I was going to suggest, and if
25 the defendants again -- I am not disputing their right --

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 continues to put in evidence like this, is there at least

2 a possibility that we can fashion some sort of instruction

3 to the jury to simplify it --

4 THE COURT: Simplify what?

5 MR. WHITE: The gist of Magistrate Jordan's

6 decision.

7 THE COURT: I am always open to suggestions.

8 MR. WHITE: Even though if they don't tell them

9 it is coming from a federal judge.

10 THE COURT: I am open to suggestions, until the

11 jury comes in with a verdict, and until they are

12 discharged after the verdict. Until then I am open to

13 suggestions, and at any time.

14 MR. WHITE: I will try to come up with a creative

15 one then.

16 THE COURT: I will overrule the objection on this

17 one. And I will instruct the jury as to what this means,

18 if you want me to. It is not for the truth of what is in

19 here, obviously.

20 MR. WHITE: Yes, I would like you to do that,

21 your Honor.

22 THE COURT: All right.

23 MR. TRABULUS: May I take that?
24 THE COURT: I will use it for a minute.
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 (Whereupon, at this time the following takes

2 place in open court.)

3 THE COURT: Members of the jury, again, I am

4 going to give you a limiting instruction as to this

5 exhibit, Defendant's Exhibit Z for Zebra.

6 By this time you heard me say that some documents

7 are not o ffered for the truth.

8 Now, what does that mean? It is a very

9 sophisticated doctrine. As a matter of fact, after this

10 case you all ought to start going to law school.

11 It means that whatever is said in here, I don't

12 know, not offered for the truth of what it says. It

13 doesn't matter.

14 It is only offered for the effects, if anything,

15 on the defendant Bruce Gordon who received it, about his

16 state of mind. What would he think? What impressions

17 would he have when he receives this, and that's all. It

18 is not that it is true. It doesn't matter.

19 Defendant's Exhibit Z, for Zebra, in evidence.

20 (Defendant's Exhibit Z received in evidence.)

21 (Handed to the witness.)

22 Q Ms. Benjamin, take a look at Exhibit Z, for Zebra.

23 In the second paragraph it lists the sources,
24 some sources of names for potential biographies; is that

25 correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 A Yes.

2 Q I am going to read it.

3 Names of potential biographies for our reference

4 volume are gathered by an in-house research department

5 from many sources, magazines, newspapers, professional and

6 scholarly journals, and many other publications,

7 professional organization memberships, as well as through

8 nominations by our advisory and nominated boards, and our

9 established biographies.

10 Now, that is everything that the letter says

11 concerning the sources of names; is that correct?

12 A Yes.

13 Q It does not reveal that Marquis utilizes mailing

14 lists, does it?

15 A No.

16 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I would like to

17 publish that to the jury.

18 THE COURT: Yes.

19 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhi bits were published

20 to the jury.)

21 MR. TRABULUS: While it is being circulated, if I

22 may, I will read the beginning of the letter.

23 December 20th, 1989. Bruce Gordon, UVX
24 Computers, 99 Seaview Boulevard, Port Washington, New York
25 11050.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4009
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 Dear Mr. Gordon.

2 You have been nominated as a biographical

3 candidate for the forthcoming 23rd edition of Who's Who in

4 the East.

5 Q Did Mr. Gordon also in discussing this letter tell

6 you that a couple of weeks before he received it he had

7 himself ordered a publication from Marquis?

8 A I don't remember that.

9 Q Now, you had testified to a conversation with Liz

10 Sautter where she mentioned the possibility to you that

11 you might need to use the penthouse; is that correct?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And had you previously discussed with Ms. Sautter or

14 anyone else there the circumstances under which you or

15 other people at Who's Who Worldwide might be able to use

16 the penthouse?

17 A No. It was not a discussion.

18 Q When she said this to you, did she indicate to you

19 that it might be for a member function that you might have

20 been working on?

21 A She didn't indicate it at that time. But there

22 had -- we did have cocktail parties there.

23 Q And you yourself had organized those cocktail
24 parties?
25 A That's correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q You had the responsibility for doing that?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Is that correct?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And these were cocktail parties for members; is that

6 correct?

7 A Yes.

8 Q For networking?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And do you recall approximately when the first one

11 was?

12 A It was in '94. I am very poor with dates, I

13 apologize.

14 Q And the second time was in the wintertime because of

15 bad weather?

16 A Right.

17 Q And the second one was not very well as attended as

18 the first?

19 A Very bad weather.

20 Q Do you recall how many members came to the first one?

21 A I would say about 50.

22 Q To the second one with the bad weather?

23 A About half that amount.
24 Q Now, are you familiar with something known as the
25 Hyde Agency?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A Yes.

2 Q They are located in San Francisco?

3 A Uh-huh.

4 THE COURT: Yes?

5 THE WITNESS: Yes. I am sorry.

6 Q Were the y involved in a networking project with

7 members that you were trying to set up?

8 A Yes. They were trying to become involved to solicit

9 membership from China, or Chinese members, I should say.

10 Q And was the Hyde Agency involved in arranging for

11 Chinese business people to visit the United States on

12 business visas to have business deals?

13 A That was my understanding.

14 Q And were you trying -- withdrawn.

15 Did Mr. Gordon ask you the try to arrange for

16 those people either to become members or meet members?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And that was part of what was being done by way of a

19 service to existing members of Who's Who to facilitate

20 possible trade with this emerging new market?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Is that correct?

23 I take it the Hyde Agency wasn't very effective
24 in doing what it was doing?
25 A No, not at all.



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q But certainly, Who's Who Worldwide was trying

2 sincerely to do that?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Were you aware that thousands of CD-ROMs were sold to

5 members?

6 A I don't know the quantity, but I know a lot.

7 Q Are you aware of any members complaining after they

8 received the CD-ROM that it was not good?

9 A I wasn't aware of it.

10 Q Were you aware that Who's Who Worldwide and Sterling

11 sometimes gave refunds to customers?

12 A Yes.

13 Q To members?

14 What was your understanding as to what the

15 refunds policy was?

16 A If a member didn't want membership or was unhappy for

17 any reason, a refund was issued pretty immediately.

18 Q That was the general policy; is that correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Is that correct?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And are you aware in some instances there might have

23 been a slip up and it wasn't done?
24 A No.
25 Q And as far as you were aware that was what was

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 supposed to be done; is that correct?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Mr. Gordon himself didn't sit on top of every staff

4 members who was involved in effecting the rep funds, did

5 he?

6 A No.

7 Q If a mistake was made, you wouldn't regard that as

8 Mr. Gordon's, would you?

9 A No.

10 Q Are you familiar with the term "buyer's remorse"?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And that would be when someone decided to buy

13 something or join something, and then changed their mind?

14 A Yes.

15 Q In the case of Who's Who Worldwide was there -- do

16 you know what the percentage of buyer's remorse, peopl e

17 who would join and right away change their mind was?

18 MR. WHITE: Objection.

19 THE COURT: Overruled.

20 A I wouldn't really have knowledge of the amount, but I

21 wouldn't think it was too many.

22 Q Was there a certain percentage of -- withdrawn.

23 Do you know what the term charge backs is, in
24 connection with credit cards?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4014
Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 Q If somebody purchased a membership and were charged

2 for the membership through a credit card, and then changed

3 their mind, and they would be given a refund, there would

4 be a charge back?

5 A Right.

6 Q And would it -- would the number of somewhere in the

7 range of six or eight percent be the amount of charge

8 backs that you were aware of?

9 A I wouldn't know that, I am sorry.

10 Q You said you didn't know it was -- you didn't think

11 it was too much, right?

12 A I didn't think it was a high percentage.

13 Q Was it your understanding that when the penthouse was

14 first leased, it was to be used for various business

15 purposes?

16 A Yes.

17 MR. WHITE: Objection. If we can have a

18 foundation for what her understanding is before she can

19 answer?

20 THE COURT: Overruled.

21 Q Who told you that?

22 A Mr. Gordon.

23 Q And what were some of the things that he explained
24 that he was planning to do with it?
25 A He wanted the cocktail parties, and the social

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 mixers, that was important. And making it available to

2 members, especially with our Russian people.

3 Q Did you yourself ever speak to anybo dy, either the

4 Russian people themselves, or representatives of the

5 Russian people to inform them that Russian members would

6 stay at the penthouse if they wished to?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Who did you speak to specifically?

9 A Dimitri, and I can't remember --

10 Q Michael?

11 A Michael.

12 Q Who were Dimitri and Michael?

13 A They were the representative -- they were from

14 Itar-Tass, the Russian News Agency, and they represented

15 us in the Russian community.

16 Q Through them did Who's Who Worldwide actually have an

17 office in Moscow?

18 A That they manned, yes.

19 Q And you told Dimitri and Michael that Russian members

20 could, if they wanted to, stay in the penthouse when they

21 came to the United States?

22 A It was made available for them, yes.

23 Q Do you know if that actually happened?
24 A I don't know if it did , but I doubt it.
25 Q If it didn't it wasn't because Who's Who Worldwide

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 didn't offer, correct?

2 A Correct.

3 MR. TRABULUS: Bear with me a moment, your

4 Honor.

5 THE COURT: Yes.

6 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

7 proceedings.)

8 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, if I may review my

9 notes for a moment?

10 THE COURT: Yes.

11 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.

12 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

13 proceedings.)

14 Q Mr. Gordon also told you he had plans to open up

15 offices in Paris and London? Do you recall that?

16 A Yes, that he did want to open up in Europe, yes.

17 Q Now, in terms of Mr. Gordon's staying at the

18 penthouse, I think you testified that there were times

19 when you were to ld he could be reached there?

20 A Uh-huh.

21 Q When he was working in the city?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Is that right?
24 A Yes.
25 Q All right.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 Did he spend -- withdrawn.

2 You spent most of your time at the Long Island

3 location; is that correct? Lake Success?

4 A It depends on the time of the month mostly. We -- if

5 we were working on a deadline of an issue, I would be back

6 and forth.

7 Q On the Tribute Magazine?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And that's -- would Mr. Gordon be working with you on

10 the deadline issue as well?

11 A Sometimes, yes, and sometimes no.

12 Q Is that correct that the penthouse was leased in the

13 Spring of 1994?

14 A I don't know when the actual lease was signed.

15 Q Is it correct that there w ere periods after that when

16 Mr. Gordon would be only at the Sterling location in the

17 City maybe once every two weeks or once a week?

18 A I don't recall how often, but, you know, he would

19 have to go back and forth.

20 Q Were there days he would go back and forth, leaving

21 to Long Island, going to the City and coming back to Long

22 Island?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And it is not -- one can't assume that everyday he
25 was in the City at Sterling, he was staying over in

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Trabulus


1 Manhattan, can we?

2 A I wouldn't know that.

3 Q In fact, as you sit there, you yourself don't know

4 how many nights, if any, Mr. Gordon actually spent at the

5 penthouse, do you?

6 A No.

7 MR. TRABULUS: I have no further questions.

8

9 CROSS-EXAMINATION

10 BY MR. SCHOER:

11 Q Good afternoon.

12 A Hi.

13 Q Ms. Benjamin, you didn't have any financial interest

14 in this business, did you?

15 A Other than my paycheck, no.

16 Q Other than your paycheck, right?

17 A Right.

18 Q And you didn't do anything in the course of your

19 employment to deceive people, did you?

20 A No.

21 Q You didn't believe that this business didn't provide

22 a product to the members, did you?

23 A No.
24 Q You had no ownership interest in the business, right?
25 A None.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 Q Is that right?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And so, you had no reason to deceive anyone; isn't

4 that correct?

5 A Correct.

6 Q Now, you were the person who first started these

7 Tribute Magazines; isn't that corr ect?

8 A Yes.

9 MR. SCHOER: Do we have that first Tribute?

10 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, we do.

11 (Mr. Schoer confers with Mr. Trabulus.)

12 Q I will show you what is marked as Defendant's

13 Gordon-H for Identification.

14 Do you recognize that?

15 (Handed to the witness.)

16 A Yes, I do.

17 Q And what is that?

18 A That's the first issue of Tribute.

19 Q The first issue of Tribute?

20 A Yes.

21 Q All right.

22 You were involved in preparing that first issue

23 of Tribute?
24 A Yes, I was.
25 Q And in fact, you are listed as the editor of the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4020
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 document; is that correct?

2 A Uh-huh.

3 THE COURT: Yes?

4 THE WITNESS: Yes.

5 MR. SCHOER: At this time I will offer H.

6 THE COURT: Any objectio n?

7 MR. WHITE: No, your Honor.

8 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit H for How in

9 evidence.

10 (Defendant's Exhibit H received in evidence.)

11 Q I am going to show you what is already in evidence as

12 Defendant's Exhibit C, D, G and F.

13 (Handed to the witness.)

14 Q Do you recognize those documents?

15 A Yes, I do.

16 Q Are those the other Tribute Magazines that were

17 published?

18 A Yes, they are.

19 Q Is it fair to say that you were intimately involved

20 in preparing those magazines?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Is that correct?

23 A Yes.
24 Q You are pretty proud of them?
25 A Yes, I am.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4021
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 Q And the things contained in the magazine, as far as

2 you knew, they were all truthful; isn't that correct,

3 Ms. B enjamin?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And you didn't publish this magazine with any intent

6 to deceive anyone, did you?

7 A No.

8 Q All right.

9 With any of your -- or any of the members?

10 A No.

11 Q Okay.

12 Let's talk a little bit about how the business

13 was done.

14 A All right.

15 Q Would you say Mr. Gordon was a very hands-on CEO?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And most of the decisions at Who's Who Worldwide were

18 decisions that were either made by Mr. Gordon, or had to

19 be approved by Mr. Gordon; is that right?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And that would be down to the minutest detail as to

22 how to sort the cards?

23 A Yes.
24 Q How many piles to put them in, and which code to put
25 in which pile; is that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4022
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A Yes.

2 Q Is it fair to say also that Mr. Gordon tried to keep

3 the various departments in Who's Who separate?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And one department didn't really -- wasn't really

6 suppose to know -- supposed to know what the other

7 department was doing?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And in fact, wasn't supposed to know much of anything

10 that the other department was doing, unless Mr. Gordon

11 wanted them to know?

12 A That's right.

13 Q And you were in the public affairs department, is

14 that fair to call it that?

15 A I don't know what the real title was.

16 Q Sometimes it is called public affairs?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Sometimes it is called communications?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Right?

21 A Right.

22 Q Sometimes it is called the publishing department?

23 A Uh-huh.
24 Q Right?
25 Any other names?

HARRY RAPA PORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4023
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A I don't know.

2 Q Okay.

3 And there was a department called administration?

4 A That's right.

5 Q Right?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q And then there was the sales department, right?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And is it fair -- were there any other departments

10 that you can think of?

11 A Well, M I S, I would say would be separate.

12 Q And that was the computer person?

13 A Uh-huh.

14 Q All right.

15 A And bookkeeping, the controller's office would be

16 separate.

17 Q In the beginning when you first arrived there, there

18 was no controller; isn't that right?

19 A Right.

20 Q And that was all part of administration, because Liz

21 Sautter, that was her responsibilities; is that correct?

22 A That's right.

23 Q In fact, before you arrived there, Liz Sautter had
24 the responsibility of the mailing lists that you talked
25 about?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4024
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A Yes. Even for some of the time when I first came,

2 when I first arrived there.

3 Q All right.

4 Is it fair to say that this company when you

5 first arrived, and over the period of time that you worked

6 there was expanding?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And not only expanding in the number of members, but

9 expanding with respect to what was being offered to the

10 members?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And it was growing; is that fair to say?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And it was your intent, and the intent of the people

15 who worked there to make the product better on a daily

16 basis; is that correct?

17 A Yes, very true.

18 Q You weren't satisfied wit h leaving things stagnant,

19 you were trying to change things and making things better?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And that's because you believed in the business; is

22 that correct?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And you believed in the product; is that right?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4025
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 Q And you didn't believe, again, that the product was

2 deceiving anyone?

3 A No.

4 Q In any way, right?

5 A No.

6 Q Now, in your department there were several people?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Ms. Konopka?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Ms. Colletti?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Ms. Swendseid?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Anyone else?

15 A There were people who were there that had left.

16 Q In and out?

17 A Yes.

18 Q That was the core of your department; is that right?

19 A Y es.

20 Q And we talked about administration, and that was

21 Ms. Sautter; is that correct?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And how many people worked for Ms. Sautter? Do you
24 remember?
25 A Off the top of my head, I think it was eight.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4026
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 Q All right.

2 It wasn't always the same people?

3 A No.

4 Q Over the period of time when you were there, Wendi

5 Springer was there at least, right?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Do you remember the names of any of the other people

8 working in administration?

9 A Kelly. I don't remember her last name. Christina,

10 Doreen. Off the top of my head that's about it.

11 Q Okay.

12 And then there were people in the sales

13 department; is that right?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And there were group leaders in the sales dep artment

16 and the actual people who made the telephone calls?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Isn't that right?

19 A Yes.

20 Q All right.

21 Did your office open mail?

22 A My office?

23 Q Yes.
24 A No.
25 Q All the mail was opened by the administration office,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4027
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 is that correct, people in administration?

2 A Correct.

3 Q And your office wasn't even allowed to open mail;

4 isn't that so?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q And the salespeople weren't allowed to open mail;

7 isn't that so?

8 A That's correct.

9 Q And all the mail that was sent, at least during the

10 time you were there, was sent from your supervision, under

11 your office, is that fair to say? Except for the

12 invoices?

13 A You mean the solicitation letters or anything like

14 that?

15 Q Any other mails as well; is that right?

16 A Yes.

17 Q The invoices were sent from administration; is that

18 correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And other than the invoice mailings, the mailings

21 came from your office; isn't that correct?

22 A The initial invoice, yes. What was referred to as

23 the B balance, that was partially produced out of my
24 office.
25 Q Okay.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4028
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 No mailings were done by the people in the sales

2 department, were there?

3 A Not unless they wrote a personal letter of some sort.

4 Q And as far as you know that solicitation letter --

5 well, all those solicitation letters, they were in the

6 administration's office in a binder; is that correct?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Did you know anything about a rule that the

9 salespeople weren't allowed in the administration office?

10 A Yes.

11 Q So, the salespeople weren't even allowed to go in

12 there to even look at the binder, even if they had the

13 desire to look at the binder; is that correct?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And are you aware that the salespeople never even saw

16 any of the solicitation letters?

17 A I would think that's correct.

18 Q And that was done for whatever reason, right? The

19 salespeople didn't know what was being mailed?

20 A No, they didn't, no.

21 Q Did you ever hear the term black door with respect to

22 the administration office, that people weren't allowed in

23 there to cross the black door?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Okay.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4029
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 Now, your office was over by some of the sales

2 area; isn't that correct?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And at times you could hear what was going on in the

5 sales room?

6 A Yes.

7 Q At times in the sales room that was near your office,

8 there was basically two different sales rooms, right?

9 A Yes. In the Lake Success office.

10 Q I am talking about the Lake Success office.

11 In the sales room that was near your office, did

12 you ever hear sales meetings going on?

13 A Sales meetings going on.

14 Q Sure.

15 A Most sales meetings were held in Mr. Gordon's

16 office.

17 Q Did you ever hear of meetings in that room -- it was

18 a big open room?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Where people sat and made telephone calls?

21 A It was not really a big open room. There were

22 dividers -- there were private cubbies.

23 Q Did you ever hear any sales meetings in that room at

24 all?
25 A I heard Mr. Gordon address the group on occasion.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4030
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 Q On the occasions you heard Mr. Gordon address the

2 group, he told them to follow the pitch, right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Follow the presentation?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And he told them not to lie; isn't that right?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And he told them not to make any misrepresentations;

9 isn't that right?

10 A Yes.

11 Q At times did you hear Tara give similar talks to

12 people?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And Tara would tell people to follow the pitch,

15 right?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And follow the presentation, correct?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Verbatim, right?

20 A That's what they were told.

21 Q And she told them not to say anything that they

22 didn't know, right?

23 A Well, I mean following the pitch was just staying
24 with what the facts are.
25 Q Okay.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4031
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 Insofar as what you knew, everything that was

2 being said to members was the facts, right?

3 A Yeah.

4 Q You indicated that you were the director of

5 marketing; is that right?

6 A Uh-huh.

7 Q Did you have other titles at Who's Who Worldwide?

8 A Yes, I believe so.

9 Q Did there come a time that you had the title vice

10 president?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Okay.

13 And that came, that came after or around the time

14 of a dinner meeting at the penthouse; is that right?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And at that dinner meeting Mr. Gordon sort of made an

17 announcement that now you were going to be the vice

18 president of the corporation; isn't that so?

19 A Of the company, not the corporation.

20 Q Of the company?

21 A Yes.

22 Q You are right.

23 And you understood that to mean that you were
24 basically going to be second in command after Mr. Gordon
25 from that point on?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4032
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A Yes.

2 Q Is that right?

3 A I guess. I don't know what it really meant.

4 Q Okay.

5 And is it fair to say that although you called

6 Liz Sautter the office manager, she was a lot more than

7 that? She made decisions on her own; is that right?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And she ran the administration office; isn't that so,

10 ma'am?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And the administration office was a very important

13 part of what was going on --

14 A Yes.

15 Q At Who's Who Worldwide?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Now, in addition to being vice president and director

18 of marketing, at times you were called the director of

19 membership; isn't that right?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And that sort of implies that you were in charge of

22 all the membership; isn't that so?

23 A Well, it was more the benefits, the membership
24 benefits.
25 Q All right.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4033
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 Now, as far as that separation that Mr. Gordon

2 imposed between the different departments -- among the

3 different departments, certain things were locked up; is

4 that right?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And only a few people even had keys to the office.

7 Isn't that so?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And do you remember who that was who had keys to the

10 office?

11 A Maria -- Maria Gaspar and Liz.

12 Q And Liz?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And you didn't have keys to the office?

15 A No.

16 Q You were second in command and you couldn't even get

17 into that office unless somebody let you in?

18 A That is correct.

19 Q Now, in addition to keys to the office, I believe you

20 testified that at times you would see people in the

21 conference room sorting the cards?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And at times you were even in the conference room
24 while people were sorting the cards; is that right?
25 A Uh-huh.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4034
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 Q And after the people sorted the cards -- let me ask

2 you this: When people sorted the cards, did they look at

3 them, the cards themselves?

4 A I don't think so.

5 They had to look and sort them by code.

6 Q Did they look at -- doing whether anyone looked

7 through those cards to see whether people were qualified

8 at all?

9 A I think they perused them but not thoroughly.

10 Q Okay.

11 And that's because there were going to be other

12 levels of selection coming in the process?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Isn't that so?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Fine.

17 At least initially that was the first

18 selection -- I shouldn't say that.

19 Initially the first level of selection was the

20 mailing lists that you were involved in; isn't that so?

21 A Yes.

22 Q You tried to key the mailing lists to executives; is

23 that right?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Management?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4035
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A Yes.

2 Q Upper management?

3 A Right.

4 Q So that would be a first level of selection; isn't

5 that fair to say?

6 A Right, uh-huh.

7 Q And then when the cards came in, there would be this

8 sorting process, and they would be perused, as you say,

9 and that would be a sort of a second level of selection;

10 isn't that right?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And if someone was obviously unqualified that card

13 would be pulled out; isn't that right?

14 A Well, that I don't know.

15 Q Well, there were times you were in the room -- were

16 you there in a supervisory capacity?

17 A No. Sometimes just to see if mail had come in or

18 something.

19 Q Oh.

20 After those cards were sorted out, they were

21 taken out of the conference room and brought to

22 administration; isn't that right?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And they were locked up in administration; do you
25 remember that?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

4036
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A Yes.

2 Q And then they were distributed pursuant to

3 Mr. Gordon's direction at some point?

4 A Correct.

5 Q All right.

6 The cards you are talking about, you called them

7 business reply cards?

8 A Yes.

9 Q When you were there at Who's Who Worldwide, is that

10 what they were called?

11 A In the printing end of it they were called BRCs.

12 Q Okay.

13 A What do you mean --

14 Q Did you ever call them anything other than BRCs?

15 A I am thinking of the technical term. I know they

16 were just referred to as cards.

17 Q You didn't call them lead cards, did you?

18 A Well, I did.

19 Q You did?

20 A Yes.

21 Q At the time you were working there, they were called

22 lead cards?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And that was a card that was sent back by a potential

2 5 member; isn't that so?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4037
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A Yes.

2 Q And when those cards went out to the member, did they

3 have stamps on them?

4 A No.

5 Q So, a member had to fill out a card, put a stamp on

6 it and mail it back to Who's Who Worldwide?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q And I think that you indicated that the codes at the

9 bottom of the card were used to track various information,

10 the response to a particular mailing listed, the response

11 to a particular letter. Did you track those responses?

12 A No.

13 Q As far as you understood Mr. Gordon tracked those

14 responses?

15 A Liz did the counts and gave it to Mr. Gordon.

16 Q Okay.

17 So, Liz and Mr. Gordon together did that; is that

18 correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And you don't know how m any people applied for

21 membership on a monthly basis, do you?

22 A No.

23 Q All right.
24 And the only way you would know that is by what
25 you were told by Mr. Gordon and by Liz; isn't that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4038
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A Yes.

2 Q And if you had that conversation as to how many

3 people applied, and the only way someone in the company

4 would know if they -- someone told that to Mr. Gordon or

5 Liz, because they were the ones who tracked that; isn't

6 that right?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And also with respect to how many people actually

9 joined the membership, that, too, was tracked only by

10 Mr. Gordon and Liz, the numbers, right?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And the only way -- if you were an employee, the only

13 way you would know how many people were joining the

14 membership on a monthly basis, is if you were told that by

15 Mr. Gordon or Liz; is that right?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And as an employee you wouldn't have any reason to

18 question what they were telling you, would you?

19 A As far as --

20 Q As far as the numbers, as to how many people sent in

21 cards, and how many people were accepted, how many people

22 were joined? You wouldn't have any reason to question

23 those numbers, would you?
24 A No.
25 Q Okay.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4039
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 You indicated that when people joined they

2 obtained a packet?

3 A Uh-huh.

4 Q I believe you called it a membership packet?

5 A Uh-huh.

6 Q Is that right?

7 A Uh-huh.

8 Q Now, do you remember what was contained in that

9 membership packet?

10 A That wa s handled in administration. But from what I

11 recollect, it was a copy of their invoice, and any

12 pertinent information. The camera-ready art slip was put

13 in there. And we had some member benefit briefings that

14 went in there as well.

15 Q When you say briefings, what do you mean?

16 A There could have been different cards or different

17 brochures at different times.

18 Q Okay.

19 Let me show you what is previously marked as

20 Defendant's Exhibit U and Defendant's Exhibit K for

21 Identification.

22 (Handed to the witness.)

23 Q I will ask you, first of all with respect to
24 Defendant's Exhibit U, is that the kind of letter that was
25 sent at that time in a membership packet?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4040
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A Yes.

2 MR. SCHOER: Your Honor, at this time I would

3 offer Defendant's Exhibit U in evidence.

4 THE COURT: Any objection?

5 MR. WHITE: I will just have to look at it.

6 (Document handed to Mr. White.)

7 THE COURT: Do you have a sheet which shows how

8 to mark the exhibits?

9 MR. SCHOER: Yes, AA is next.

10 THE COURT: Yes, and then AB.

11 MR. SCHOER: Yes, AB, and AC.

12 THE COURT: All right.

13 MR. WHITE: No objection, your Honor.

14 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit U for Uncle, in

15 evidence.

16 (Defendant's Exhibit U received in evidence.)

17 Q Let me show you Defendant's Exhibit K, again for

18 identification.

19 (Handed to the witness.)

20 Q Is this one of those -- what did you call them?

21 A Like a brochure.

22 Q A brochure, but you used a different term. I am

23 trying to remember what you said.
24 Is that the brochure that was sent at times?
25 A Ye s.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 Q Okay.

2 MR. SCHOER: Your Honor, I would offer

3 Defendant's Exhibit K.

4 THE COURT: Any objection?

5 MR. WHITE: I will have to take a look at that,

6 too. I haven't seen it, your Honor.

7 (Document handed to Mr. White.)

8 THE COURT: Meanwhile, would you like to pick up

9 that exhibit on the jury rail?

10 MR. SCHOER: Yes, Judge.

11 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Your Honor, while Mr. White is

12 looking at that, may we approach for a moment?

13 THE COURT: Not now.

14 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I have no objection.

15 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit K for King in

16 evidence.

17 (Defendant's Exhibit K received in evidence.)

18 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we will recess

19 for lunch. Please do not discuss the case, and keep an

20 open mind. We will recess until 1:30.

21 Have a nice lunch.

22 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the

23 courtroom.)
24 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Wallenstein.
25 MR. WALLENSTEIN: My client received an emergency

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4042
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 phone call about 15 minutes ago. His mother passed away

2 this morning.

3 THE COURT: I am sorry to hear that.

4 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Therefore he can't be here

5 tomorrow and would like the rest of the day.

6 I would ask if Mr. White intends to redirect this

7 witness with respect to anything I crossed on, and if he

8 does, I would ask he do that immediately after the lunch

9 break and Mr. Reffsin be then excused until Tuesday.

10 THE COURT: I have no objection to doing that.

11 Is there going to be any evidence involving

12 Mr. Reffsi n from now until Tuesday?

13 MR. WALLENSTEIN: That's why I asked about

14 Ms. Benjamin, because the next witness as far as I

15 understand has nothing to do with Mr. Reffsin.

16 MR. WHITE: I don't suspect Mr. Wattstein will

17 have anything to do with Mr. Reffsin. The only hitch in

18 that plan, is depending on how long Ms. Benjamin takes,

19 there was the possibility that we would interrupt

20 Mr. Wattstein's testimony tomorrow afternoon for other

21 customers, who I also don't have anything to do with

22 Mr. Reffsin. But I wanted to make that clear.

23 THE COURT: Do you want to come up, Mr. Reffsin.
24 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Particularly since I will not
25 be here tomorrow either.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4043
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 THE COURT: First of all, Mr. Reffsin, let me

2 offer my condolences.

3 TH E DEFENDANT REFFSIN: Thank you, your Honor.

4 THE COURT: We will certainly excuse you. You

5 will be able to come back on Tuesday?

6 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: I think so, your Honor.

7 THE COURT: Do you consent that we go ahead with

8 the trial in your absence?

9 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: As long as the Debra

10 Benjamin situation is resolved, which is not a great

11 issue, but it is an issue.

12 THE COURT: That will definitely be resolved

13 until after 1:30. Would you be able to stay if that is

14 resolved?

15 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: Yes. My brother is

16 taking care of the arrangements at that time. And I want

17 to get there as well.

18 THE COURT: If it is resolved, you will stay

19 until that time?

20 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: Yes.

21 THE COURT: Do you agree the trial to continue in

22 your absence, as long as nothing comes in with respect to

23 any of the counts against you?
24 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: Yes.
25 THE COURT: If you want, you can say I want this

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4044
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 trial to wait until I come back on Tuesday, if you do, I

2 will have to do that.

3 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: I don't want the other

4 people to go through that. They are as anxious to get

5 this over as I am.

6 THE COURT: You know you have the right to say

7 put this over and I will have to do it.

8 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: Yes.

9 THE COURT: We already discussed the fact that

10 Mr. Wallenstein will not be here tomorrow.

11 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: Yes.

12 THE COURT: Mr. Geduldig will continue to

13 represent you in your absence; is that correct,

14 Mr. Geduldig?

15 MR. GEDULDIG: Yes.

16 I would say that it might be adv isable since both

17 Mr. Wallenstein and Mr. Reffsin not are going to be here,

18 the jury may see both gone for a couple of days, you might

19 advise the jury that they are both not here, and it has to

20 do with personal matters?

21 THE COURT: I will certainly do that, if you

22 would like me to do that.

23 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I think it is appropriate. It
24 is only for a Friday afternoon session. You can handle it
25 any way you wish.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 THE COURT: That you will be gone this afternoon

2 as well?

3 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: Yes. As soon as the

4 situation with Ms. Benjamin is completed.

5 THE COURT: I will give a curative charge to the

6 jury.

7 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: Thank you.

8 THE COURT: Again, accept my condolences.

9 THE DEFENDANT R EFFSIN: Thank you.

10 THE COURT: We will recess until 1:30.

11 (Luncheon Recess.)

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N

2

3 THE CLERK: Jury entering.

4 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the

5 courtroom.)

6

7 D E B R A B E N J A M I N ,

8 called as a witness, having been previously

9 duly sworn, was examined and testified as

10 follows:

11

12 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the

13 jury.

14 I have a few announcements to make.

15 Firstly, sometime this afternoon Martin Reffsin
16 is going to leave. He is leaving because of a personal

17 matter of an em ergency nature. I have consented that he

18 leave. He has consented that we continue the trial in his

19 absence. No inference is to be made of any kind by the

20 fact that he will not be here until Tuesday. It is a

21 matter of extreme personal emergency.

22 During his absence there will be no evidence

23 adduced as to any count involving Martin Reffsin.
24 Also, for those who are interested in next week's
25 assignment, we will be working on Friday, from 1:30 to

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4047
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 5:30 next Friday. We will be working tomorrow and next

2 Friday, which is the 20th. How time does pass.

3 All right.

4 And during that time Mr. Wallenstein will be not

5 here this afternoon also --

6 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I will be here today, not

7 tomorrow.

8 THE COURT: I am sorry, he will be here today.

9 But tomorrow afternoon I have excused Mr. Wallenstein who

10 also has a matter of some urgency. And no inference is to

11 be made whatsoever by the fact that they are not here.

12 You may proceed.

13 MR. SCHOER: It was my understanding to

14 accommodate Mr. Reffsin, Mr. White will redirect.

15 MR. WHITE: I have nothing on the subject.

16 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Then, your Honor, I will ask

17 that Mr. Reffsin be permitted to leave.

18 THE COURT: Mr. Reffsin, you may leave. And we

19 will see you on Tuesday.

20 (Whereupon the defendant Reffsin leaves the

21 courtroom.)

22

23
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)

2 BY MR. SCHOER:

3 Q Good afternoon.

4 I think when we broke I had shown you

5 Defend ant's Exhibit U and K, both in evidence, and I just

6 wanted to ask you, those documents were documents that

7 were used when you first got there and probably for some

8 time before you were at Who's Who Worldwide; is that fair

9 to say?

10 A I believe I created this letter originally.

11 Q Okay.

12 A I am not 100 percent sure, but I believe so.

13 Q In any event, there came a time that a similar letter

14 went out over your signature?

15 A Uh-huh.

16 Q Is that fair?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And let me show you what I have marked as Defendant's

19 Exhibit AB, and I will ask you -- for identification. And

20 I will ask you whether are not that is the letter that

21 went out over your signature as part of the membership

22 packet.

23 (Handed to the witness.)
24 A Yes.
25 MR. SCHOER: At this time, your Honor, I will

HARRY RAPA PORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4049
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 offer Defendant's Exhibit AB.

2 Did you want to see it?

3 MR. WHITE: Yes, I needed to take a look at what

4 it is.

5 (Document handed to Mr. White.)

6 THE COURT: What is that, Mr. Schoer?

7 MR. SCHOER: It is a letter to the members when

8 they first became members, which is part of the membership

9 packet.

10 THE COURT: Is there a date on that letter?

11 MR. SCHOER: I don't believe so, your Honor.

12 MR. WHITE: No objection.

13 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit AB, Abel Baker,

14 in evidence.

15 (Defendant's Exhibit AB received in evidence.)

16 MR. SCHOER: I gave Mr. White two other exhibits

17 that he is looking at now, before I show it to the

18 witness.

19 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

20 proceedings.)

21 Q I will show you Ms. Benjamin, what I have marked as

22 Defendant's Exhibit AE and AA, double A, for

23 Identification.
24 (Handed to the witness.)
25 Q Are those the kind of documents that would have been

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4050
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 sent with Defendant's Exhibit AB, the letter we were just

2 talking about?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And one of those is a brochure setting forth the

5 benefits, sort of a color brochure; is that right?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And the other one is a written sheet with, again, the

8 benefits?

9 A Yes.

10 MR. SCHOER: Your Honor, I would offer those two

11 exhibits Defendant's Exhibit AE and AA.

12 MR. WHITE: No objection.

13 THE COURT: All right.

14 Defendant's Exhibit AA, Abel Abel, and AE, Abel

15 Easy, in evidence.

16 (Defendant's Exhibit AA r eceived in evidence.)

17 (Defendant's Exhibit AE received in evidence.)

18 MR. SCHOER: May I publish to the jury

19 Defendant's Exhibit U, Defendant's Exhibit K, Defendant's

20 Exhibit AE and Defendant's Exhibit AB at this time?

21 THE COURT: Yes.

22 MR. SCHOER: Thank you.

23 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published
24 to the jury.)
25 Q Defendant's Exhibit AA, did that change from time to

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4051
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 time?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Because in that exhibit there is a reference to a

4 conference; isn't that so?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And that's the Hilton Head conference that is

7 referred to in that exhibit; is that right?

8 A Yes, that's correct.

9 Q And obviously before the Hilton Head conference was

10 planned, that document would have been similar ly, but not

11 exactly the same?

12 A Yes.

13 Q As the one that went out to people?

14 A Right.

15 Q And after the Hilton Head had been cancelled, again,

16 the document would have been similar?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And not exactly the same, right?

19 A Right.

20 Q Okay.

21 Now, I think just to clarify this, you indicated

22 that those documents were sent with the invoice; is that

23 right?
24 A That is correct.
25 Q And they were sent by the administration office?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4052
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A That's correct.

2 Q As far as you know they were not mailed by the

3 salespeople in any way?

4 A No, not that I know.

5 Q All right.

6 You talked about mailing lists, right?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And had you used mailing lists before in you r other

9 jobs?

10 A No.

11 Q Okay.

12 By the way, I don't think you told us, what did

13 you do before you worked for Who's Who Worldwide?

14 A I had been a marketing director with Con Air

15 Corporation for a number of years. And also event planner

16 with Steven Scott.

17 Q And when you say you worked for Con Air, how many

18 years did you work for Con Air?

19 A Actually it was four, and I did a lot of consulting

20 fork for them through the years.

21 Q What was your responsibilities at Con Air?

22 A Written materials, advertising, commercials.

23 Q Do you have an educational background in marketing?
24 A Yes.
25 Q What type of degree do you have?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4053
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A Bachelors.

2 Q Is that in marketing and advertising?

3 A Yes, m arketing communications.

4 THE COURT: Ms. Benjamin, you have to wait until

5 the question is over before you answer.

6 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.

7 Q I am sorry, I don't talk fast.

8 It is in marketing communications your degree?

9 A That's right.

10 Q You took courses in advertising when you were in

11 college?

12 A Yes, and throughout the years.

13 Q Now, in those other jobs, Steven Scott and Con Air,

14 did you use mailing lists at all?

15 A No.

16 Q When you came to Who's Who Worldwide, that's really

17 the first time you were using mailing lists; is that

18 right?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Did someone train you with respect to how to use the

21 mailing lists?

22 A Mr. Gordon.

23 Q I think you indicated that you tried to be very
24 specific with respect to the type of person on the mailing
25 list that you would try to get an address for; is that

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4054
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 right?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And you were familiar with the mailing lists, to the

4 extent that at times mailing lists were not accurate;

5 right?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Did you know that people received letters addressed

8 to Mr. Library from the Who's Who Worldwide mailing list?

9 A We found that out. They would come back.

10 Q Come back in the mail?

11 A Sometimes they would come back in the mail as

12 addressee unknown, or they would get faxed back with nasty

13 comments.

14 Q Sometimes people got letters addressed to Mr. or

15 Ms. Ass, A S S?

16 A Yes.

17 Q You remember that?

18 A Yes.

19 Q When that happened you weren't very happy, right?

20 A No.

21 Q And you contacted the mailing list?

22 A When there was a high rate of that you get in touch

23 with the list broker.
24 Q In fact, in the order for purpose, I don't know if it
25 was the purchase order, or the invoice you received from

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4055
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 the list brokers, it said you were not going to pay for

2 those kinds of addresses; isn't that so?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And as far as you knew it was sort of standard for

5 anyone who rented mailing lists?

6 A Yes.

7 Q That there would be some addresses which just were

8 not accurate?

9 A Yes.

10 Q You didn't do that to insult anyone, did you?

11 A Certainly not.

12 Q You talked about the codes that were written on top

13 of some of the letters introduced in evidence. There is

14 information about the number of pieces mailed and the code

15 that was assigned to that particular letter or mailing; is

16 that correct?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Did you determine that or was it determined by Liz

19 Sautter?

20 A Did I determine what?

21 Q What code to put on.

22 A The codes in most cases I had determined.

23 Q But the information written on those letters, that's
24 in your handwriting?
25 A No.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4056
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 Q That's in Ms. Sautter's handwriting?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And you were the one who actually made the

4 determination as to what code to give to a particular

5 mailing or mailing list; is that right?

6 A Yes, when it fell under my responsibility.

7 Q Okay.

8 Did Mr. Gordon have some input into that, as to

9 which code to use?

10 A Yes, sometimes.

11 Q And you indicated that there came a time that

12 Mr. Gordon became very angry with you; is that correct?

13 A Yes.

14 Q All right.

15 Did that happen more than that one occasion that

16 you talked to us about, that he became angry at you?

17 A He could get angry frequently.

18 Q And he got angry with a lot of people, right?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Not just you?

21 A No.

22 Q He didn't pick you out as a person to be angry at?

23 A No.
24 Q Some days he was angry at people in administration,
25 some days he might be angry at someone in sales; is that

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4057
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 right?

2 A Yes, that's right.

3 Q Would you say that Mr. Gordon was a very stubborn

4 man?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And when you suggested something to him, he didn't

7 always agree with you, and in a stu bborn way he didn't

8 agree with you at times; is that right?

9 A I don't know how to answer that.

10 Q Okay, I will withdraw the question.

11 In any event, it was Mr. Gordon's position that

12 he knew how to run his business, and he would run it the

13 way he wanted to run it, right?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Without input from you being the second in command,

16 or the third in command, or without input from Liz Sautter

17 being the second in command or third in command, or

18 without input from any of the employees; is that fair to

19 say?

20 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.

21 THE COURT: Overruled.

22 A I can answer?

23 Q You can answer.
24 A I would say, yes.
25 Q When you first came on board at -- let me ask you

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4058
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 this: Before you were in terviewed for the job at Who's

2 Who Worldwide, did you have -- did you do any sort of

3 research into this kind of business and what it was about?

4 A No.

5 Q Did there come a time at any time that you did any

6 sort of research into Who's Whos and what the business was

7 about?

8 A Yes.

9 Q All right.

10 Did you do some research with respect to Reed

11 Elsevir or Marquis, and what they were doing?

12 A Yes.

13 Q What kind of research did you do? What did you do?

14 A Well, there is a book that is printed about Who's

15 Who -- the Who's Who phenomenon. It is a paperback book

16 that I believe is out of print now. I was reading about

17 it and the different takeovers that happened during the

18 course of Who's Who.

19 Q Did you learn in doing that research that there is no

20 exclusivity to the use of the term Who's Who?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And that Marquis wasn't the exclusive owner of the

23 term "Who's Who?"
24 A Yes.
25 Q And did you do any research as to how many Who's

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4059
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 Whos, different kinds of Who's Whos there might be

2 published in the United States?

3 A There are quite a few.

4 Q Did you ever go look at Books in Print and see how

5 many there really were?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Do you remember the name of the book you looked at?

8 Was it Books in Print or Directories in Print?

9 A I believe it was Books in Print. The correct title.

10 Q And it happens to be a Reed Elsevir book; is that

11 right?

12 A Yes.

13 Q All right.

14 I will show you what I have marked as

15 Defendant's Exhibit AH.

16 (Handed to the witness.)

17 Q Is that a copy of pa ges of Books in Print that relate

18 to Who's Who publications? Would you just take some time

19 to look at it.

20 A Yes, it is.

21 Q Is that what you looked at in doing the research you

22 told us about?

23 A Yes.
24 MR. SCHOER: At this time I would like to offer
25 Defendant's Exhibit AH.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4060
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 MR. WHITE: I need to look at it first.

2 THE COURT: Yes.

3 (Document handed to Mr. White.)

4 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, may I have a brief voir

5 dire?

6 THE COURT: Surely.

7

8 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

9 BY MR. WHITE:

10 Q Ms. Benjamin, when did you do this research about

11 Who's Who?

12 A It was in -- it was in about -- dates again -- '93, I

13 believe.

14 Q While you were working at Who's Who?

15 A Yes.

16 Q You did it prior to '97 or '98?

17 A Oh, yes.

18 MR. WHITE: I have an objection, your Honor.

19 THE COURT: Can I hear the last several

20 questions, the voir dire of Mr. White, please.

21 Mr. Reporter.

22 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the

23 requested material.)
24 THE COURT: Can I see it, please?
25 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I have two bases for the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4061
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 objection.

2 THE COURT: Before you do that, let me look at

3 it.

4 MR. WHITE: Sure.

5 THE COURT: Can we staple it together?

6 MR. SCHOER: Yes, Judge.

7 THE COURT: I have a stapler here.

8 This is hearsay, isn't it?

9 MR. SCHOER: Yes.

10 THE COURT: What is the exception of the hearsay

11 rule?

12 MR. SCHOER: Research that this lady did with

13 respect to the business before she came into the business.

14 THE COURT: That is no foundation for an

15 exception to the hearsay rule. Sustained.

16

17 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)

18 BY MR. SCHOER:

19 Q In any event, when you did this research you learned

20 that there were hundreds of Who's Whos; is that correct?

21 A I don't know the exact count, but there was more than

22 one.

23 Q And more than ten?
24 A More than ten, yes.
25 Q And more than 50?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4062
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1 A Yes. There were quite a few.

2 Q All right.

3 Did you also learn -- withdrawn.

4 When you did this research into Reed Elsevir, did

5 you learn whether or not Marquis Who's Who at that time

6 had a CD-ROM?

7 A Did I learn if they did?

8 Q Yes.

9 A I t hink somebody on my staff made mention that they

10 had been offering CD-ROM. But I don't know if that was a

11 fact or not.

12 Q Had you learned whether or not they had a membership

13 organization?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Was Reed Elsevir a membership organization or just a

16 publisher?

17 A A publisher.

18 Q Do you know since Who's Who Worldwide has gone out of

19 business, whether or not -- withdrawn.

20 Do you know that since Who's Who Worldwide went

21 out of business, that Reed Elsevir has now started a Who's

22 Who membership organization?

23 A No, I have no knowledge of that.
24 Q Do you know that since Who's Who Worldwide has gone
25 out of business, that Reed Elsevir now has a CD-ROM?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A No.

2 Q And Mr. Gordon had always said that Reed Elsevir was

3 trying to put him out of business; is that right?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And in fact, did you learn that in the course of the

6 civil case, that you talked about before, that Reed

7 Elsevir, or one of the exhibits was that Reed Elsevir --

8 someone at Reed Elsevir had written a letter saying that

9 Who's Who Worldwide is a thorn in our side?

10 A I was not aware. I wasn't privy to that, to that

11 case.

12 Q And is it fair to say -- and I think we may have

13 talked about this this morning, but is it fair to say that

14 Who's Who Worldwide was growing and growing?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And membership was growing?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And it was becoming more and more competitive with

19 Reed; is that fair to say?

20 A Yes.

21 Q On a daily, monthly, and weekly basis, it was

22 becoming more and more a competitor of Reed; isn't that

23 so?
24 A I guess that was the perception, yes.
25 Q Now, you indicated that there came a time when there

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4064
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 was this discussion about sending someone to -- on the

2 Hong Kong, Vietnam trip, if members purchased the tour?

3 A Uh-huh.

4 Q And I think you mentioned that Tara might have been

5 one of the people that could have gone; is that correct?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And do you know whether anyone ever told Tara that?

8 A I don't know.

9 Q Okay.

10 A I don't know.

11 Q This is a discussion you had with Mr. Gordon, right?

12 A I think people were joking, can I go, can I go, that

13 type of a thing, so --

14 Q Okay.

15 Now, you testified that there were times when

16 Wendi Springer would come to you to inquire as to whether

17 or not a particular person was qualified to be a member of

18 Who's Who Worldwide; is that right?

19 A On occasion, yes.

20 Q And this was after that particular person had been

21 spoken to and interviewed by one of the salespeople; is

22 that right?

23 A Yes.
24 Q It was after an order had been written; isn't that
25 so?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4065
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A Yes.

2 Q And even at that stage, after an order had been

3 written, there was a screening process by Wendi Springer,

4 and I think you said even perhaps eight other people who

5 were doing data entry, to determine whether or not a

6 particular person was qualified? Is that fair?

7 A Yes, yes.

8 Q Now, when Wendi Springer came to you and asked

9 whether a person was qualified, if you didn't believe that

10 that pers on was qualified, you would tell her no, right?

11 A Correct.

12 Q You would tell her to make a refund; is that right?

13 A I would say to check with Mr. Gordon to make a

14 refund.

15 Q All right.

16 You had an idea of what the qualifications were

17 for being admitted into membership; isn't that correct?

18 A Yes.

19 Q In fact, on that document I think you have right in

20 front of you, what exhibit number is that?

21 A AA.

22 Q AA?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And at the top of that it sort of lists the criteria,
25 doesn't it?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4066
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A Yes.

2 Q What does it say? Can you read it to the jury?

3 A Slowly?

4 Q Yes, very slowly.

5 A Each member of WWW must be interviewed before

6 acceptance. Members are CEOs, COOs, presidents, chairmen,

7 executive VPs, VPs, division managers, scientists,

8 governmental leaders, educators, producers and other

9 leaders in all industries.

10 Q When you sent that out, you believed that to be true;

11 is that correct?

12 A Yes.

13 Q You didn't intend to deceive anyone by making that

14 statement when you sent that out with a letter that you

15 had written above your name; is that correct?

16 A No.

17 Q That's basically the criteria you used when Wendi

18 Springer would come to you to determine whether or not

19 someone qualified to be a member in Who's Who Worldwide,

20 right?

21 A Yes.

22 Q You testified about the Transnational script that was

23 introduced into evidence. Do you remember that?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q All right.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4067
Benjamin-cross/Scho er


1 There was -- and I think you testified that there

2 was nothing wrong with that script as far as you could

3 see, except for the issue that concerned the fund raising;

4 is that right?

5 A That is correct.

6 Q And Mr. Gordon didn't want anyone to ever believe

7 that this was a not for profit corporation, did he?

8 A No.

9 Q In fact, he was pretty emphatic about that, that no

10 one was ever to be told this was a not for profit

11 corporation; is that correct?

12 A That's so.

13 Q And people make mistakes, right?

14 A Uh-huh.

15 Q And you showed that ad -- let me find it -- for the

16 auto insurance where you had told them to delete certain

17 information?

18 A Uh-huh.

19 Q Isn't that correct?

20 A Yes.

21 Q That was information concerning the fact that Who's

22 Who Worldwide was getting some money back if someone had

23 joined or purchased the auto insurance through
24 Transnational; is that right?
25 A That is correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4068
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 Q If you just bear with me, I will try to find the

2 right Tribute.

3 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

4 proceedings.)

5 Q I will show you what is marked as

6 Defendant's Exhibit D in evidence. I will show you the

7 advertisement. And that's the one we were talking about,

8 the one about auto insurance; isn't that correct?

9 (Handed to the witness.)

10 A Uh-huh.

11 Q And, in fact, that paragraph, at least that sentence

12 concerning the compensation to Who's Who Worldwide is

13 still in that, right?

14 A Yes, it is.

15 Q So, that was a mistake, right?

16 A On this one, yes.

17 Q Peo ple make mistakes, right?

18 A Uh-huh.

19 Q Okay.

20 The salary that you made while you were at Who's

21 Who Worldwide, do you remember what you were being paid?

22 A $1,500 a week.

23 Q Is it fair to say as far as you knew that other than
24 Mr. Gordon, you were making the highest salary there?
25 A I had no idea what anybody was making there. It was

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4069
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 a very quiet subject.

2 Q Okay.

3 In addition to the salary you received, you had a

4 car, a company car?

5 A A company car, yes.

6 Q And Liz Sautter also had a company car?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And Mr. Gordon also had a company car?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Anybody else have a company car that you know of?

11 A Not that I am aware of.

12 Q Is it fair to say that while you were at Who's Who,

13 the company delivered what they promised to deliver to

14 people?

15 A Yes.

16 Q In fact, you testified to that under oath?

17 A Yes.

18 Q At a hearing?

19 A Yes.

20 Q In the bankruptcy court?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Isn't that right?

23 A Yes.
24 Q All right.
25 The day that the agents came at the end of March,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4070
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 1995, you were working?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Right?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And were you at Lake Success that day or in New York?

6 A No, I was in Manhattan.

7 Q And they arrested certain people?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Isn't that right?

10 A Yes.

11 Q They didn't arrest you though, did they?

12 A No.

13 Q Did they know your name at that time?

14 A Yes.

15 Q You ide ntified yourself, right?

16 A Excuse me?

17 Q You identified yourself at that time; isn't that

18 right?

19 A No. Mr. Gordon and I had had a meeting with the

20 inspectors a few days prior to the incident happening.

21 Q And when you had that meeting a few days prior to the

22 incident happening, the raid, you identified yourself as

23 Debra Benjamin; is that right?
24 A Yes.
25 Q To Mr. Biegelman?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4071
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A Mr. Biegelman and Mr. Pagano.

2 Q Did you tell them what your position was in the

3 company?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Did you indicate that you were a vice president?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And you were the director of marketing?

8 A Yes.

9 Q But when the time came for the raid they didn't

10 arrest you?

11 A No.

12 Q Okay .

13 Now, you indicated there came a time when you

14 traveled to California with Mr. Gordon; isn't that right?

15 A With Mr. Gordon and Tara.

16 Q And Tara?

17 A Uh-huh.

18 Q And was that trip a sort of spur of the moment?

19 A Yeah, it kind of was.

20 Q You weren't given a great advance notice that you

21 were going to be going to California, were you?

22 A No.

23 Q In fact, if you remember, Tara has just come back
24 from a vacation in California and she was told she had to
25 go back out there?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4072
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A That's correct.

2 Q When you went out to California Mr. Gordon rode first

3 class on the plane; is that right?

4 A Right.

5 Q And you and Tara were sitting in the back with the

6 regular people; is that right?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And when you got out to California Mr. Gordon had

9 this suite that he stayed in; is that right?

10 A I don't know what kind of accommodations he had.

11 Q You and Tara were in a room together?

12 A Together, yes.

13 Q And Mr. Gordon really didn't tell you much about what

14 was -- what your purpose out there was, other than to look

15 for an office; is that right?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And to maybe try and get an initial interview,

18 initial interviews of some people, right?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And to look for furniture for the office; is that

21 right?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And he didn't tell you he was going to set up
24 separate corporations for doing business in California,
25 did he?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4073
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A No.

2 Q You thought that was all goi ng to be part of Who's

3 Who Worldwide, right?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And you thought it was going to be just an expansion

6 again of the business, right?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Providing more service for more people, right?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Because you and Tara, your goal was to provide

11 service for your members; is that fair to say?

12 A Very fair.

13 Q And you wanted to serve those members in any way you

14 could; is that fair to say?

15 A That's fair.

16 Q Okay.

17 And your idea was if you had offices in

18 California, you had offices in Europe, you have offices

19 here, you have offices there, it is easier to service the

20 members; is that right?

21 A That's right.

22 Q This was going in your mind, and you envisioned this

23 to become a major membership organization, right?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Where people got benefits for do ing this, for being

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4074
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 part of the membership, right?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And where people got -- had the ability to meet other

4 business people and network, right?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And where eventually there would be conferences,

7 educational things, Tribute Magazines which would provide

8 educational information to members as well; isn't that so?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And that was sort of like other membership

11 organizations; isn't that so?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Sort of like the American Bar Association?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Right?

16 A Yes.

17 Q The American Bar Association is a group of lawyers

18 who are members?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Is that right?

21 A That is correct.

22 Q Who get together for conferences at times?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And educational services?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4075
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 Q Right?

2 A Right.

3 Q And get benefits, discounted benefited, the same sort

4 of benefits that Who's Who was offering, right?

5 A I imagine similar.

6 Q They get a magazine very similar to this, talking

7 about other people in the law, talking about legal issues,

8 right?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And that was your goal with the Tribute, to do a

11 magazine sort of like the American Bar Association

12 journal?

13 A Yes.

14 Q As this company was growing and as you were there,

15 you were getting feedback from members; isn't that so?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And the feedback you were getting from members was

18 very positive. Is that fair to say?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Members w ere happy with the services they were being

21 provided?

22 A Yes.

23 Q If they weren't happy with the services they were
24 being provided you and all the people there would try to
25 make them happy; is that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4076
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A That's correct.

2 Q You believed you were selling them a valuable

3 product, and you wanted to give them that product, right?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Now, did there come a time when -- let me take a step

6 back for a second.

7 When you had that meeting with Inspector

8 Biegelman several days before the raid, you explained to

9 Inspector Biegelman, you and Mr. Gordon together explained

10 to Mr. Biegelman the situation of this other Who's Who; is

11 that correct?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And you also explained the situation concerning, I

14 believe you said Mr. Parks?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And you explained to -- you showed him around the

17 offices, right?

18 A Yes.

19 Q This was at Sterling in Manhattan?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Is that right?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And you explained to him what you were doing, and the
24 process?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4077
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 Q Isn't that so?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Is it the membership, and the whole concept of Who's

4 Who Worldwide?

5 A Yes.

6 Q He told you everything was okay, right?

7 A He didn't indicate one way or the other.

8 Q He didn't indicate that you were doing anything

9 wrong, did he?

10 A No.

11 Q All right.

12 He didn't indicate you were doing anything

13 illegal?

14 A No.

15 Q Did he?

16 A No.

17 Q He didn't indicate that you might get indicted and go

18 to trial because of things that were being done at Who's

19 Who Worldwide, did he? Not you in particularly --

20 A No.

21 Q -- personally, but employees?

22 A No.

23 Q Now, did there come a time when, when you did an
24 analysis of the members and their titles? Did you ever do
25 anything like that?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4078
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A We did a leadership study from Tribute, or worked on

2 a leadership study.

3 Q I was going to ask you about that.

4 A Yes.

5 Q Also, did you ever do any sort of analysis of the

6 members and their titles from the CD-ROM?

7 A I believe we did, yes.

8 (Mr. Schoer confers with Mr. Jenks.)

9 Q I will show you what I have marked as

10 Defendant's Exhibit AI for Identification.

11 I will ask you whether that is the analysis that

12 you did of the titles of members that were on the CD-ROM.

13 (Handed to the witness.)

14 A I am not a hundred percent sure if I prepared this or

15 someone who worked with me, it might have been Maggie

16 Swendseid.

17 Q Under your supervision?

18 A Yes.

19 THE COURT: It might have been who?

20 THE WITNESS: Maggie Swendseid.

21 THE COURT: Maggie.

22 Q It was done under your supervision, and it was a

23 document prepared on behalf of Who's Who Worldwide?
24 A Yes.
25 MR. SCHOER: Your Honor, I will offer that

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4079
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 document in evidence. I will show it to Mr. White.

2 MR. WHITE: I would like to see it.

3 (Document handed to Mr. White.)

4 MR. WHITE: Your Hono r, may I have a voir dire?

5 THE COURT: Sure. ^^

6

7 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

8 BY MR. TRABULUS:

9 Q Ms. Benjamin, approximately when, if you recall, was

10 this document prepared?

11 A As I said, I don't believe I prepared it myself. I

12 believe it was someone on my staff, probably Maggie. But

13 it had to be after the CD-ROM was released.

14 Q Was an analysis like this done only once or done once

15 and then done again and updated?

16 A No. I believe it was just the one time.

17 MR. WHITE: I have no objection.

18 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit AI, Abel Item, in

19 evidence.

20 MR. SCHOER: May I publish this to the jury?

21 THE COURT: Yes, you may. But pick up the other

22 exhibit.

23 MR. SCHOER: Yes, I will. I am doing that right
24 now.
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
40 80
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published

2 to the jury.)

3

4 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)

5 BY MR. SCHOER:

6 Q Ms. Benjamin, I am going to show you again the

7 Tribute Magazines.

8 I will ask you some questions about them.

9 Perhaps you can pick up the first one and tell us what

10 exhibits number that is, the first volume.

11 A Gordon-H.

12 Q Okay.

13 Looking at -- opening that book and looking at

14 the first page, it says: From the publisher. There is a

15 statement signed by Mr. Gordon; is that correct?

16 A Uh-huh, yes.

17 Q Did you write that or did Mr. Gordon write that? Do

18 you remember?

19 A I think it was a cooperative effort.

20 Q Okay.

21 And the things that are contained in there, as

22 far as you knew, they were true, right?

23 A Yes.
24 Q O kay.
25 Looking at page 3. That's a list of benefits,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4081
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 programs and privileges; is that fair to say?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And in fact, it talks about things that you were

4 planning on doing, sort of conferences -- it doesn't list

5 any particular conference, because these are things you

6 had in the works, or that you wanted to do; isn't that so?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And it talks about a New York City business center?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Can you tell us what that was?

11 A At the Sterling offices, which were located right off

12 Lexington Avenue, there was a very, very large conference

13 room. And there were smaller conference rooms that

14 members could avail themselves of.

15 Q And, in fact, in that letter, that first letter from

16 the publisher, you also inv ite people to provide you with

17 articles; isn't that correct?

18 A Yes.

19 Q For future publication?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And invite people to send them -- send you a list of

22 recent professional awards and promotions and upcoming

23 speeches, and things like that, books and articles so you
24 can spotlight them in the Who's Who magazine?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4082
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 Q And that was all done so that members would be able

2 to get a value from this magazine, right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Both the members who submitted those documents would

5 have the value of self promotion, business promotion,

6 right?

7 A Uh-huh.

8 Q And the members who were reading the magazine would

9 have the value of learning about what other people were

10 doing, and various areas o f business; is that fair to say

11 as well?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And you talk about in that letter the conference

14 rooms in Manhattan, right?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And you even say that there are business center

17 conference rooms and other services in a breath taking

18 international plaza building in Manhattan, yes?

19 A Yes.

20 Q That was all true, right?

21 A Yes.

22 Q You didn't intend to deceive any of those members

23 when you put those things in your magazine, did you?
24 A Not at all.
25 Q Now, in that magazine as well, there were member

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4083
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 profiles; isn't that so?

2 A That's correct.

3 Q And these were profiles of people who had purchased

4 memberships in Who's Who; is that fair to say?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q And one of those was the chairman of the board of

7 Viacom International?

8 A Yes, Sumner Redstone.

9 Q The other was the co-chairman of Hanna Barbara; is

10 that correct?

11 A That's correct.

12 Q And one was the corporate vice voice of Boeing?

13 A That is correct.

14 Q The other was the president of Norsk, N O R S K; is

15 that correct?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q Was one the executive producer of the Reading Rainbow

18 TV series?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Was one the president and CEO of GE Appliances?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q One was the manager of the McDonnell-Douglas?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q One was the president of Izod?
25 A That's correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4084
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 Q The retired chairman and CEO of Emerson Electric?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Senior vice president and CEO of Burger King?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And these people were all members of your

6 organization; is that right?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q In addition in that first issue there were some

9 articles written by members; is that correct?

10 A That's correct -- the first time? I believe --

11 Q There was an article called, great opportunities

12 overseas but be aware of risks?

13 A Yes.

14 Q That was written by a member?

15 A Yes.

16 Q This was the first one?

17 A The very first one.

18 Q A trial, right?

19 A Uh-huh.

20 Q It was your idea to make it even better, right?

21 A Right.

22 Q Would you pull out the second one.

23 Which exhibit is that for the record?
24 A Gordon-G.
25 Q Looking again at Gordon-G on page 2, the message from

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COUR T REPORTER
4085
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 the CEO and publisher, Mr. Gordon, did you again

2 collaborate with him to prepare that?

3 A Yes, myself and the other editorial staff members.

4 Q And you indicated there that you invite all to drop

5 us a line about your new enterprise or products?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And about your favorite hotels and locations, and

8 that's because you had a little squib in there about

9 restaurants, people's favorite restaurants and hotels; is

10 that right?

11 A Yes.

12 Q You encourage people to write letters; is that right?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Also, there is a PS at the end of that column; is

15 that right?

16 A Yes.

17 Q That says that the organization is growing rapidly,

18 domestically and internationally, and you are going to

19 provide expanded services and privileges because the

20 members hip was becoming stronger, right?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And when all those things were written you intended

23 all those things to happen?
24 A Absolutely.
25 Q You didn't intend to deceive the members by putting

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4086
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 those things in the magazine, did you?

2 A No.

3 Q In fact, you had received some letters after the

4 first edition; isn't that so?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And those are on page 4; is that right?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Those letters were very favorable to what you were

9 doing; is that correct?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And they encouraged you to continue to do what you

12 were doing; is that right?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And they encouraged you because they believed and you

15 believed that you were providing a service to your

16 members; is that right?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And, again, you listed on page 7 the privileges --

19 the benefits of the -- of the organization? Things that

20 people could do, right?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And in that edition you talked about Tass, T A S S?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And also about the Hyde International Group?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4087
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 Q And, again, you were believing that you were growing

2 and expanding on behalf of your membership?

3 A Yes.

4 Q You were providing them growing and expanded

5 services; is that right?

6 A Yes.

7 Q By trying to hook up with Tass and Hyde; is that

8 right?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Again, in that edition there were member profiles; is

11 that right?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And there were also the spotlights we talked about ?

14 A Uh-huh.

15 Q Right?

16 A Uh-huh.

17 Q In this edition there were some advertising; is that

18 correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Advertising from Chevis Regal, Izod, and Cadillac?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Hilton?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And you believed what you were doing here was, again,
25 providing a little service to your membership?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4088
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A Yes.

2 Q And looking --

3 THE COURT: You are not going through another one

4 of those?

5 MR. SCHOER: I was going to go through one more.

6 THE COURT: You are not going to.

7 The other one is similar, profiles?

8 THE WITNESS: Yes.

9 THE COURT: Advertisements?

10 THE WITNESS: Yes.

11 THE COURT: Famous people?

12 THE WITNESS: That's right.

13 THE COURT: All ri ght.

14 Q Let me ask you in general, the other magazines

15 started to add additional benefits; is that right?

16 A Yes.

17 Q There were advertisements for the CD-ROM, right?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And there were advertisements that said there were

20 57,000 plus members, right?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And that this was the executive networking at its

23 best, right?
24 A All right.
25 Q And you believed those kind of statements to be true,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4089
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 didn't you?

2 A Yes, I did.

3 Q You didn't intend to deceive anyone when you put

4 those in the magazine, right?

5 A No, not at all.

6 Q All right.

7 You also, I think, mentioned that there was a

8 survey in one of the magazines?

9 A Yes.

10 Q A member survey?

11 A The readership survey.

12 Q Readership survey?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And it requested certain information from the

15 membership concerning their habits really?

16 A Exactly.

17 Q And also whether they were reading a magazine, and

18 what suggestions they might have for improving a magazine?

19 A That's correct.

20 Q And did you get any -- did you get results from that

21 survey?

22 A Yes, I did, an overwhelming amount, as a matter of

23 fact. I was very shocked.
24 Q And you used that to plan for future additions of
25 your magazine; isn't that so?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4090
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A Yes.

2 Q One of the people you profiled in the magazine was a

3 lady from Hard Copy; is that right?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And Hard Copy is a kind of television show that does

6 investig ative journalism; is that right?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q And if you thought that you were doing something to

9 deceive people by having people join your organization,

10 you certainly wouldn't have profiled someone from Hard

11 Copy, would you?

12 A No.

13 Q That would be the last person in the world you would

14 want to profile; isn't that so?

15 A That's right.

16 Q Also in the magazine there were nomination ballots?

17 A Yes.

18 Q There came a time you prepared a declaration under

19 penalties of perjury; do you recall doing that?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Is it fair to say that when the agents came and

22 closed down the business after the raid, that you were

23 planning additional services at that time?
24 A Prior to the raid?
25 Q Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4091
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 A Yes.

2 Q And you were going to add some more services, right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And I think you said you had a Tribute Magazine ready

5 to go to press?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q And one of the services, the new services that you

8 were going to provide to members was an ADP payroll

9 service at a discounted rate?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And you had that all in place?

12 A Pretty much.

13 Q Okay.

14 And you were also going to provide to members

15 discounted Sky-Tel Paging Services?

16 A One of the new ones also.

17 Q And you were going to continue to try and expand the

18 services that were going to be provided to members?

19 A Yes.

20 Q In that -- did you tell -- withdrawn.

21 That declaration under penalty of perjury, that

22 was something you submitted to the Court, or Who's Who

23 Worldwide submitted to a co urt, and you knew that when you
24 prepared it; isn't that correct?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4092
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 Q And you knew that you were swearing to the things

2 that were contained in that document, isn't that right?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q And is it fair to say that when you put in that

5 document that there are qualifications for the members,

6 and we try to be highly selective about the people we ask

7 to join?

8 A Yes.

9 Q You believe that to be true; isn't that right?

10 A I always believed that to be true.

11 Q And you still believe that to be true as you sit here

12 right now?

13 A Yes.

14 Q You don't believe you deceived any of your members

15 into joining who were -- because you stated that you were

16 highly selective, did you -- do you?

17 A I am sorry, you confused me with that one.

18 Q I will withdraw it. I think I confused myself.

19 You don't believe that you deceived any of your

20 members into joining because you held yourself out to be

21 highly selective? And when I say you, I mean the company;

22 isn't that true?

23 A That's true.
24 Q And you indicated that you seek managerial and
25 professional people --

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4093
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 MR. WHITE: Objection. Mr. Schoer is reading

2 from a document not in evidence.

3 THE COURT: He may be reading it. It is not

4 evident to me. I didn't watch him closely. If he was I

5 would let him do it anyway. He could read every word of

6 his cross-examination. Some lawyers do that. Did you

7 know that, Mr. White?

8 MR. WHITE: I am not objecting to him reading,

9 your Honor. He can read what he wants. I am objecting to

10 him to talking about a document and reading sentence by

11 sentence to the witness.

12 THE COURT: I wasn't aware he was referring to a

13 document.

14 MR. WHITE: He was. He keeps referring to this

15 declaration.

16 THE COURT: A declaration. Is that an

17 objection?

18 MR. WHITE: Yes, your Honor.

19 THE COURT: Overruled.

20 He could be reading from the Encyclopedia

21 Britanica if he wants to, and ask every question from a

22 printed document, if he wants to.

23 Q Did you indicate at that time that Who's Who
24 Worldwide was seeking individuals who are high ranking in
25 their fields?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4094
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 THE COURT: Are you now referring to a

2 particular -- as to whether this witness stated t hat in a

3 document?

4 MR. SCHOER: Yes, Judge.

5 THE COURT: I am sorry, you are quite right.

6 MR. WHITE: I was a little puzzled.

7 THE COURT: No, you are quite right.

8 Sustained. Strike out the last answer, too.

9 What I meant, members of the jury, is that some

10 lawyers write out their entire cross-examination, and read

11 it question by question. There is nothing wrong with

12 that. I used to do some of that myself when I wasn't

13 sure.

14 Of course, that's different from reading from a

15 document that is not in evidence and trying to get it in

16 that way. That you can't do.

17 You are right, Mr. White. I apologize.

18 MR. WHITE: For once I am right.

19 THE COURT: You have been right more than once,

20 Mr. White. But no more than the other lawyers, of

21 course.

22 MR. WHITE: Of course.

23 Q Is it fair to say that y our experience at Who's Who
24 Worldwide you believed that the company was being
25 selective and highly selective with respect to the members

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4095
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 that it chose to include?

2 A Yes.

3 THE COURT: Mr. Schoer is not only being

4 repetitive, but he is fading away, which is a double

5 dose.

6 You said that about four times. Maybe it is more

7 like ten times.

8 MR. SCHOER: I thought you just struck that, and

9 I thought I would rephrase it and try another way.

10 THE COURT: No. You covered that an hour ago,

11 Mr. Schoer, which is all right, that's fine. But enough

12 is enough.

13 MR. SCHOER: Enough is almost enough. I have a

14 few more questions, I am sorry.

15 THE COURT: All right.

16 Q Based on your experience did you believe from the

17 members that they were happy with the product that you

18 were providing?

19 MR. WHITE: Objection.

20 THE COURT: No. That's a new twist. I didn't

21 hear that one before, whether the members were happy.

22 That's a new one. Overruled. That showed initiative,

23 Mr. White?
24 MR. WHITE: Me, or Mr. Schoer?
25 THE COURT: Mr. Schoer right now.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4096
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1 MR. WHITE: All right.

2 THE COURT: You will have your turn.

3 MR. SCHOER: Thank you.

4 THE WITNESS: Can I answer?

5 THE COURT: Were the members happy?

6 THE WITNESS: The ones I spoke to were.

7 THE COURT: Okay.

8 Q They believed they got value for what they purchased?

9 A I don't know if it was value. But it was the

10 recognition. Their egos enjoyed it tremendously.

11 Q Also, you were providing services, you gave them what

12 you promised to give them?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And if they chose to take advantage of those services

15 they were there, right?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q Some members close to take advantage of the services

18 and others didn't?

19 A That's correct.

20 Q As far as you were concerned, as a member of the

21 company, you weren't trying to deceive them to defraud

22 them in any way, were you?

23 A Not at all.
24 MR. SCHOER: That's all I have, Judge.
25 Thank you.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4097
Benjamin-cross/Schoer


1

2 CROSS-EXAMINATION

3 BY MR. NELSON:

4 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Benjamin.

5 A Good afternoon.

6 Q Ms. Benjamin, I believe you testified that you were

7 working at Who's Who Worldwide commencing in the early

8 fall of 1992; is that correct?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And your last day of employment was the day that the

11 search warrant was executed at the end of March, 1995; is

12 that correct?

13 A That's right.

14 Q And now, when you first started working at Who's Who

15 Worldwide, would I be correct in stating that the

16 benefits, the tangible benefits, that circumstances that

17 were offered to the members consisted primarily of the

18 plaque, the Registry and entry in the Registry, and a

19 listing in the Registry, and the seal provided to the

20 members who joined?

21 A Yes, I would say that was pretty much it.

22 Q And would I be correct that over the course of time

23 that you were employed at Who's Who Worldwide, you became
24 primarily involved in the inclusion of additional benefits
25 which Mr. Schoer has gone through in a great deal of



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4098
Benjamin-cross/Nelson


1 detail over the course of that two and a half year period

2 of time?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Is that right?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q Now, I represent Frank Martin. You know Mr. Martin;

7 is that correct?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And Mr. Martin was working at the company when you

10 first came to work at Who's Who Worldwide; is that right?

11 A He -- yes.

12 Q Am I correct that he left the employment of Who's Who

13 Worldwide a few months after you came on board?

14 A Yes.

15 Q So that at the time he came to the employment at

16 Who's Who Worldwide, the benefits being provided as we

17 stated before were the plaque, the Registry and the seal

18 primarily; is that correct?

19 A That's correct.

20 Q Now, am I correct that Mr. Martin came back to work

21 at Who's Who prior to the search warrant being executed?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And he came back, as I recall, it was towards the end
24 of November in 1994; do you remember that?
25 A Yes. Around that time frame.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4099
Benjamin-cross/Nelson


1 Q Now, Mr. Martin had been employed in the sales

2 department; is that right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q He was a group leader?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And part of his duties and responsibilities were to

7 supervise the various different people in the sales

8 department; is that right?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q Now, Mr. Schoer asked you a few questions with

11 respect to Tara.

12 During the course of Mr. Martin's employment

13 while you were at the company, am I correct that you heard

14 Mr. Martin tell the sales staff during the course of

15 meetings, you have to stick to the pitch?

16 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

17 proceedings.)

18 Q Let me withdraw the question, did you ever hear him

19 speak with sales people at sales meetings during the time

20 you were there --

21 A Sales meetings per se, no.

22 Q Did you ever hear him in the course of training

23 meetings with new employees?
24 A Not really. It is not something I would hear.
25 Q Did you ever hear him addressing the different

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4100
Benjamin-cross/Nelson


1 employees in the company who worked in the sales

2 department?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Did you ever hear him go over the sales script with

5 any of the members of the company?

6 A No.

7 Q Did you ever hear him discuss with any member of the

8 company that they should follow the sc ript?

9 A No, not one way or another.

10 Q Did you ever hear him say that they should deviate

11 from the script whatsoever?

12 A No.

13 Q Did you ever hear him at any point in time make a

14 misstatement of fact as you knew the facts of the company

15 to be while you were employed there?

16 A No.

17 Q Did you ever hear Mr. Martin make any form of a

18 misrepresentation to any employee of the company?

19 A No.

20 Q Did you ever hear Mr. Martin tell, train, supervise,

21 or request any member of the company to make a

22 misrepresentation to a prospective customer?

23 A No.
24 Q Now, when Mr. Martin returned to the company in March
25 of 1994, would I be correct in stating that the membership

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4101
Benjamin-cross/Nelson


1 package, the benefits of membership had va stly improved?

2 There was a great deal of benefits provided qualitatively

3 for people coming into the company?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And would I be correct that as it related to those

6 members, the benefits that were going to be provided are

7 set forth in great detail in the various different Tribute

8 Magazines that Mr. Schoer has gone over with you in some

9 detail?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And by November of 1994, am I correct that by that

12 point in time there were at least three or four Tribute

13 Magazines that already had been released to the public?

14 A Yes.

15 Q So that, if Mr. Martin had had the opportunity to

16 review a Tribute Magazine, or a number of those Tribute

17 Magazines prior to his agreement to return to the employee

18 of Who's Who Worldwide, he would have become aware of the

19 vastly expended package now being provided to the

20 membership?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Is that correct?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And that would have included the CD-ROM?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4102
Benjamin-cross/Nelson


1 Q Is that right?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And it would have included the Master Card, which was

4 now being provided as a benefit to members?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Is that correct?

7 A Yes.

8 Q All right.

9 Let me go into a different area and not belabor

10 the parts asked by other attorneys.

11 In addition to the solicitation required as a

12 result of the mailing lists, am I correct that in Tribute

13 Magazine there was included nomination ballots?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And it had been -- it had been your decision, or you

16 were the impetus behind attempting to require present

17 members nominating new members whe n you came on board in

18 late 1992?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Is that correct?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And when you first came to the employment of Who's

23 Who Worldwide, am I correct that in fact members did
24 nominate members, but there wasn't a procedure which
25 existed within the company for that to take place?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4103
Benjamin-cross/Nelson


1 A That's correct.

2 Q People would send in letters or faxes for purposes of

3 nominating friends or co-employees; is that right?

4 A That's right.

5 Q And because it was coming in in a manner which was

6 relatively disorganized, it was difficult, if not

7 impossible to make use of the resources of such an option;

8 is that correct?

9 A I would say so, yes.

10 Q And having seen, once you were working there, that

11 these nominati ons were coming in from existing members for

12 new members, you saw this as an opportunity to expand a

13 qualified membership base; is that right?

14 A That's right.

15 Q Am I correct that there were a number of different

16 means by which the nomination ballots went out?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And one would be in the Tribute Magazine; is that

19 right?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And when the new membership package was sent out to a

22 new member, did that likewise include a nomination ballot?

23 A Yes.
24 Q Okay.
25 And during the course of time there were

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4104
Benjamin-cross/Nelson


1 periodically membership updates, I guess informational

2 brochures that were sent to the membership in general; is

3 that right?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Okay.

6 Did those mailings likewise include nomination

7 ballots on occasion?

8 A On occasion, yes.

9 Q And so, would it be fair to say that by November of

10 1994 there had been literally hundreds of thousands of

11 nomination ballots which were sent out to existing members

12 for the purpose of the nomination of new members?

13 A There were -- yes, there had been, you know, a lot of

14 mailings done at that point.

15 Q Now, during the course of questioning yesterday by

16 Mr. White, he had asked you about the number of nomination

17 ballots you saw when the mail came in as opposed to

18 ballots as lead cards that came in during the few

19 occasions that you saw the mail being sorted.

20 A Yes.

21 Q Do you recall that testimony?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And would I be correct in stating that as it related
24 to nomination ballots, since there were numerous different
25 forms of mailing s sent out with respect to the nomination

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4105
Benjamin-cross/Nelson


1 ballots, that the nomination ballots came back to the

2 company not in one large lump sum, but they came back

3 literally on a daily basis in a smaller quantity?

4 A Yes.

5 Q As time went on and more and more nomination ballots

6 were sent out more nominations were coming in from

7 existing members?

8 A I wouldn't know the number if there were more or

9 less.

10 Q Would you say the intention was that as time went on

11 and the company expanded with new nomination ballots being

12 sent out to existing members to nominate new members, the

13 expectation on the part of the company was, or at least

14 your expectation was that more and more members would be

15 nominating new members?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Okay.

18 That expectation, were you able to determine over

19 the course of time were the number of nominations, as

20 opposed in 1992, increasing by 1994?

21 A I am sorry --

22 Q I will withdraw the question and rephrase it. It is

23 a confusing question.
24 A I am sorry.
25 Q If we were to compare the number of nominations in

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4106
Benjamin-cross/Nelson


1 1992, with the number of nominations in late 1994, would I

2 be correct in stating that the number or quantity of

3 people nominated by existing numbers would be greater?

4 A I would assume it was. But I wouldn't know factually

5 what it was.

6 Q And that's because you weren't in a position on a

7 daily basis to sort through the mail as it was coming in?

8 A That's right.

9 Q All right.

10 Would I be correct in st ating that had Mr. Martin

11 in perusing the Tribute Magazine and the various different

12 periodicals and mailings sent out between 1992 and 1994,

13 review those materials before he returned to the company

14 in 1994, he would have become aware of the fact that there

15 is now or there was now a procedure in place for the

16 nomination of new members by existing members?

17 A If he had reviewed --

18 Q Yes.

19 A Yes.

20 Q Do you recall ever discussing with Mr. Martin

21 following his return to the company the existence of a

22 nomination procedure?

23 A I don't recall discussing it with him, but, you know,
24 I can recall a conversation where he was thrilled with the
25 magazine.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4107
Benjamin-cross/Nelson


1 Q Did he discuss with you the fact that he had read

2 what w as enclosed in the magazine and happy with the fact

3 that there had been a vastly expanded amount of benefits

4 to the members of Who's Who Worldwide?

5 A Yes.

6 Q I believe you testified with respect to the mailings

7 that went out, you would review with Mr. Gordon the type

8 of mailing list that would be utilized for the purpose of

9 the mailings; is that correct?

10 A That's correct.

11 Q And in addition to doing that you would select

12 certain groups or areas on particular mailing lists for

13 purposes of the solicitations?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Is that right?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q And that would then result in the mailings that were

18 sent out and eventually led to lead parts?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Is that correct?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And would I be correct in stating that the reason why

23 you and Mr. Gordon would review the crit eria in the
24 mailing list, was to assure the quality and exclusivity of
25 the people who would be included in that particular

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4108
Benjamin-cross/Nelson


1 mailing?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Now, once the lead cards were returned, I believe you

4 indicated you observed on a few occasions that there was a

5 sorting procedure that took place when the male first came

6 down?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q When that occurred, and when particular individuals

9 seemed not to qualify, not within the criteria, those

10 people would be plucked out immediately; is that correct?

11 A They should have been.

12 Q Now -- correct me if I am wrong. But do you

13 understand the next part of the procedure in terms of the

14 lead cards were that the lead cards would be distributed

15 to the different group leaders who would then distribute

16 the cards to the sales personnel for the purposes of

17 making the telephone calls?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And were you aware of the fact that a policy existed

20 whereby Bruce Gordon had instructed the group leaders to

21 review the lead cards before they were distributed to the

22 various different salespeople to see that the people who

23 were in the lead cards would qualify for being members of
24 Who's Who Worldwide?
25 A I wouldn't know if he had made that statement to the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4109
Benjamin-cross/Nelson


1 group leaders.

2 Q Were you aware of a policy accident existed, whereby

3 the sales personnel were instructed to return lead cards

4 to the group leaders if they felt that the person was not

5 qualified for being a member of Who's Who Worldwide?

6 A Yes. I heard that said numerous times.

7 Q You heard that from Mr. Gordon, Tara and Frank; is

8 that correct?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q And am I correct that they would tell the various

11 different sales personnel, if you return a lead card to

12 somebody who is not qualified, you would give -- we would

13 give another lead card to somebody who is qualified; is

14 that correct? In other words, redeem one for another?

15 A I imagine that that is how the policy would have

16 worked.

17 Q And I believe you also indicated that -- withdrawn.

18 Am I correct in stating that after the lead cards

19 were distributed to the sales personnel, the sales

20 personnel would then call and interview each of the people

21 contained in the lead card?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Okay.
24 And based upon that interview, if the sales
25 personnel would make a determinatio n that the person was

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4110
Benjamin-cross/Nelson


1 qualified, they would prepare an order form which was

2 subsequently submitted to Wendi Springer or other members

3 of the administration department; is that right?

4 A If the person purchased a membership.

5 Q Right.

6 Am I correct that once that occurred, there was

7 another level of screening which would take place by Wendi

8 Springer and people who worked with her to determine

9 whether or not the people who had already been screened by

10 the sales staff were qualified to be members?

11 A Yes.

12 Q So, in summary would I be correct in stating that as

13 it related to the people who became members as a result of

14 the mailings, there were really four separate levels of

15 screening, those including the exclusivity of the mailing

16 list, and initial sorting and screening when the card came

17 in, a review by the group leader, the salesperson, and the

18 qualifying interview, and finally, a review by the

19 administration department to make sure that the person who

20 sent in the lead card for the mailing was qualified in the

21 membership of Who's Who; is that correct?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And would I be correct in stating that that
24 four-level procedure for screening the qualifications of
25 individuals was in existence at the time that Frank Martin

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4111
Benjamin-cross/Nelson


1 returned to Who's Who Worldwide in November of 1994?

2 A Yes.

3 Q You had mentioned -- I am going to change the subject

4 for a moment -- the Hilton Head conference, which in fact

5 did not take place. And -- do you recall that testimony?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And you had indicated there had been a meeting in

8 which the sales staff was apprised that Hilton had had --

9 Hilton Head had been cancelled; is that correct, that you

10 attended?

11 A That --

12 Q The meeting that the sales staff had been apprised

13 that the Hilton Head conference had in fact been

14 cancelled; is that correct?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And I believe it was your testimony that to the best

17 of your recollection that meeting occurred either in

18 August or September 1994; is that right?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And am I correct that at that point in time, August

21 or September 1994, Mr. Martin had not yet returned to

22 Who's Who Worldwide?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q So, obviously he wasn't in attendance at that
25 meeting?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4112
Benjamin-c ross/Nelson


1 A That's right.

2 Q Is that right?

3 A Yes, that's correct.

4 Q Now, on the date that the search warrant was executed

5 at Who's Who Worldwide, you were not arrested on that day;

6 is that right?

7 A No, I was not.

8 Q And there were quite a number of employees, however

9 who were arrested after that; is that right?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Now, you had been employed at Who's Who Worldwide

12 from I guess September 1992, through the day the search

13 warrant was executed; is that right?

14 A That's right.

15 Q You and Mr. Martin had overlapped in employment for

16 maybe a five or six month period of time over that three

17 year period; is that right?

18 A Yes.

19 Q As you see Mr. Martin is presently here on trial; is

20 that correct?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q And you were aware of the fact -- am I correct, that

23 the mailing -- withdrawn -- the solicitation letters
24 contained in it the statement that the person was
25 nominated; is that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4113
Benjamin-cross/Nelson


1 A Yes.

2 Q And the sales staff had absolutely no contact with

3 the solicitation letters, and based upon your prior

4 testimony would not have been in a position to have seen

5 those solicitation letters; is that right?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q You were aware of the fact that mailing lists were

8 utilized, since you were primarily responsible for the

9 acquisition of those mailing lists?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Is that right?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q As it relates to the mailing list, the sales staff

14 had no control of the selection process or the acquisition

15 of the lists; is that right?

16 A That's right.

17 Q So, Mr. Martin would not have been aware of either

18 the use of the mailing list or the contents of the

19 solicitation letter; is that correct?

20 A Not unless Mr. Gordon informed him of it.

21 Q Would I be correct in stating, and I believe you

22 testified earlier, that as you sit here today, you feel

23 that you have in no way, shape or form committed any sort
24 of a crime during your employment at Who's Who Worldwide?
25 A That's correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4114
Benjamin-cross/Nelson


1 Q Would I be correct in stating that in no way, shape

2 or form, do you feel that you deceived any person, or

3 intended to deceive any person by your actions, conduct or

4 omissions during the course of your employment in Who's

5 Who Worldwide?

6 A That's correct.

7 MR. NELSON: Thank you.

8 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we are going to

9 take a ten-minute recess. Please do not discuss the case,

10 and keep an open mind. Please recess yourselves.

11 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the

12 courtroom.)

13

14 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)

15

16 THE CLERK: Jury entering.

17 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the

18 courtroom.)

19 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the

20 jury.

21 Anyone else?

22 MR. JENKS: Yes, your Honor.

23 THE COURT: Go ahead.
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4115
Benjamin-cross/Jenks


1 CROSS-EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. JENKS:

3 Q Ms. Benjamin, my name is Mr. Jenks. I have a few

4 questions for you.

5 A Okay.

6 Q The company you worked in, Who's Who, you worked in

7 the La ke Success office; is that correct?

8 A Yes, that's correct.

9 Q And you would be familiar with the physical layout of

10 the Lake Success office, am I correct?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Including where Mr. Gordon's office was, your office

13 was, the salespeople and so forth; is that right?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And how about the Sterling Who's Who offices, would

16 you be familiar with those offices?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Now, would it be fair to say that these offices

19 weren't in the basement somewhere, were they?

20 A No.

21 Q And it wasn't people huddled around one little

22 telephone cold calling people during the day, was it?

23 A Not at all, not at all.
24 Q Let me show you what has been marked as Defendant's
25 Exhibit AC in evidence, and see if you can identify for

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 the members of the jury certain -- if you can narrate the

2 rooms and who sat where and where the salespeople were.

3 A Yes.

4 MR. JENKS: Your Honor, I am going to play what

5 has been marked as Defendant's Exhibit AC in evidence,

6 which the government has stipulated as being in evidence;

7 is that correct, Mr. White?

8 THE COURT: Is it previously offered?

9 MR. WHITE: We have not previously offered it.

10 MR. JENKS: Mr. Dunn marked the tapes. I will

11 mark AC and AD in evidence at this time, your Honor.

12 THE COURT: Any objection?

13 MR. WHITE: No, your Honor.

14 Defendant's Exhibits AC, Abel Charley, and AD, Abel Dog in

15 evidence.

16 (Defendant's Exhibit AC received in evidence.)

17 (Defendant's Exhibit AD received in evidence.)

18 Q Can you see that from where you are sitting?

19 A I believe so.

20 MR. TR ABULUS: Your Honor, if I may for the

21 record, AC indicates it is for Who's Who Worldwide, and AD

22 indicates it is for Sterling Who's Who, so we can keep

23 track of what is what.
24 Q All right, perhaps you can show the members of the
25 jury what it is we are actually filming now.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 (Videotape is played.)

2 A This is the administration office.

3 THE COURT: When you say the administration

4 office, that's the office that Liz Sautter was the head

5 of?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q And that is --

8 A Right outside Liz' office. That's originally where

9 my assistants sat. One desk was empty for a period of

10 time. And Bruce's office, that would be that was the

11 MIS's person's office.

12 This here would be the bookkeeping office.

13 Q Wh o ran the bookkeeping office?

14 A Originally Liz was doing the bookkeeping and than

15 Marie what Gaspar was brought on board.

16 Q Maria, all right.

17 A That was Tara's office.

18 That was -- this is the area where the

19 salespeople sat. These were the group leader offices in

20 front of the rows.

21 Q They were partitions by cubicle?

22 A Yes, uh-huh.

23 Q I see.
24 Were those on the other side of the
25 administration office and Mr. Gordon's office?

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1 A Yes. It was behind the door. There was a hallway

2 were the two secretaries sat, and then a doorway. Then

3 there was one area there and one all the way down the

4 other end.

5 Q I take it each salesperson would sit in one of these

6 cubicles?

7 A Yes.

8 Q When t he company was up and functioning prior to

9 November 30th, 1995, before the raid -- I am sorry, March,

10 before the raid, were each of those cubicles filled with

11 salespeople?

12 A I would presume so. But I wouldn't know first-hand

13 if they were or not.

14 Q Okay.

15 How many people would you say, Ms. Benjamin,

16 worked all told, in March of 1995, at this Lake Success

17 business?

18 A Off the top of my head, about 45, 50.

19 Q And at the Sterling Who's Who business?

20 A About the same amount, a little less maybe.

21 THE COURT: I can't hear you. You have to keep

22 your voice up.

23 THE WITNESS: I am sorry, approximately 100
24 people.
25 Q Continue.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Jenks


1 A This is still the same side of the office. There is

2 a second ha lf of the office.

3 This is a little lunchroom.

4 This was an area used for storage.

5 THE COURT: I think it is not going to work

6 unless you move it out and we can hear her.

7 THE WITNESS: I can see.

8 THE COURT: Ms. Benjamin, we have to hear every

9 word you say, and every word is being recorded. In order

10 for the reporter to hear it and for me, and everybody else

11 in the courtroom to hear it, you have to speak up. You

12 have a low voice. So why don't you sit and move that a

13 little bit to the left so she can see it.

14 MR. JENKS: Yes, your Honor.

15 THE COURT: And she can use the microphone.

16 Then the jury will not see it. Move it out

17 toward the door more.

18 MR. TRABULUS: This way.

19 JUROR NO. 4: Push it back, push it back,

20 straight back.

21 THE COURT: She can't see that.

22 Push it back more.

23 (Where upon, at this time there was a pause in the
24 proceedings.)
25 THE COURT: Now you have it.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 (Videotape is continued.)

2 THE WITNESS: I am pretty sure this is the

3 storeroom. This is the additional section we had taken

4 now.

5 Q That's the second half of the office, right?

6 A The second half of the office, yes.

7 Q All right.

8 A That is the entry foyer, where there were two

9 receptionists posted at the desk to the left.

10 THE COURT: Would you just hold it a minute?

11 MR. JENKS: Yes, your Honor.

12 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

13 proceedings.)

14 THE COURT: You can proceed.

15 MR. JENKS: Your Honor, we have to rewind it to

16 the beginning, since it was queued up to another location

17 on the tape.

18 THE COURT: Go ahead.

19 MR. JENKS: It will just take one minute.

20 (Tape is played.)

21 Q Try to start from here?

22 A That's the hallway from outside the office in Lake

23 Success. That's the entrance way to Who's Who Worldwide.
24 This is the reception desk. To the left and to
25 the right are doors going into both sections of the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 office.

2 Q Were there conference rooms available here for member

3 use at the Lake Success office or only the Sterling

4 location?

5 A Predominantly Sterling, because of the size, the

6 space. We were limited for space here.

7 Q If a member needed to use a conference room, they

8 were able to use it?

9 A They were able to use it.

10 Q And that was an additional benefit as well; is that

11 ri ght?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And tell us what is here?

14 A This is coming into the area behind the reception.

15 The camera is a little shaky. It is taking a moment to

16 get my bearings.

17 This is the new section of the office here. And

18 those are the cubicles that the salespeople sat in on that

19 side of the office.

20 Q There were two sides to the office that the

21 salespeople sat in?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And the ones we saw previously?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And these?

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1 A Yes.

2 Q And these, correct?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And this is a brand-new installation.

5 A Yes.

6 Q This is put in right prior to the raid on March 30th,

7 1995; is that correct?

8 A A few months prior, yes.

9 Q Those little signs you saw, B- 1 and B-2, those are

10 not signs the corporation put up, they are signs that the

11 government put up; is that correct?

12 A They were not signs that I had ever seen before.

13 Q Specifically that sign, B-4.

14 A Specifically, that was not a corporate sign.

15 Q All right.

16 Now, at the time of this filming, do you know

17 whether or not these cubicles were occupied by

18 salespeople?

19 A I presume they were.

20 MR. DUNN: Objection, your Honor, to presume.

21 THE COURT: Were you there when this film was

22 taken?

23 THE WITNESS: No, I was in the New York office
24 that day.
25 THE COURT: So, you don't know who was there at

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 the time?

2 THE WITNESS: Exactly.

3 THE COURT: Okay.

4 I don't see any people in the booths myself.

5 JUROR NO. 4: Me, too.

6 Q What I meant, ma'am, is were they actually being

7 utilized on a daily basis?

8 A Yes.

9 Q They were?

10 A Yes, yes.

11 That was exactly in front of the sales area, some

12 sinks and storage area, and a copy machine.

13 Q And that is --

14 A That is a corner. It is a glass unit, it is turned

15 around, a glass mirrored unit in the corner for decorative

16 purposes.

17 Q Just let us know if we come back to the portion of

18 the tape that we have already seen, okay?

19 A Okay.

20 This was Suzanne Konopka's office, on the same

21 side as mine. I believe it was Suzanne or Maggie. I am

22 trying to get my bearings here.

23 Q Suzanne and Maggie both worked for you; is that
24 right?
25 A That is correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 That looks like it was my office, which was right

2 next door -- it was my office, right next door to Susan's.

3 Q That is where you sat, Ms. Benjamin?

4 A That's correct.

5 That is a storage room.

6 Q Were the registries actually shipped from the Lake

7 Success location?

8 A The original fulfillment was done through the book

9 bindery. On occasion, if people sent -- did their final

10 payment later, than some of them would be sent out from

11 the Lake Success location.

12 Q Meaning according to the terms of the split billing?

13 A Yes.

14 That looks like it was Maggie Swendseid's

15 office. But she was now at this point based in Manhattan

16 full time.

17 Q The gentlemen of those pictures are not employees of

18 Who's Who Worldwide, are they?

19 A No, they are not.

20 That is a hallway leading from that area to

21 Mr. Gordon's office, which has the glass block. On the

22 left, the black doorway is the conference room. And

23 straight ahead is the administrative offices.
24 That's the conference room in Lake Success.
25 This is Mr. Gordon's office.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q Those are not employees of Who's Who Worldwide, are

2 they?

3 A No, they are not, they are not.

4 Those are sample plaques.

5 Q That were in Mr. Gordon's office?

6 A That were in Mr. Gordon's office.

7 Q Are those a representation or a representative sample

8 of all the plaques that Who's Who manufactured?

9 A Yes.

10 Q By the way, do you know what happened to all the

11 furniture in that office?

12 A No. I have no idea.

13 That is the entryway to the administration. That

14 is a Dutch door. That was usually kept closed. The top

15 half was open, but people were not supposed to be in and

16 out of administration. That's the reason for that door.

17 MR. NEVILLE: I am sorry, what was the last

18 comment?

19 THE WITNESS: People were not allowed to traipse

20 in and out of administration, so that door was usually

21 kept closed.

22 Q Was administration where the administrative ballots

23 were held? Is that where they would be kept?
24 A The lead cards and things were stored in there, I
25 believe.

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1 Q As well as the nomination ballots; is that correct?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And you said the lead cards were stored in binders;

4 is that right?

5 A No, no, no.

6 Q They were given to representatives, to the

7 salespeople. Bu t after they came back to administration,

8 did they get put back into binders?

9 A No. They were filed.

10 Q Okay.

11 A Okay.

12 Q In file cabinets?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And how about the nomination ballots, were they filed

15 in file cabinets as well?

16 A I don't know.

17 That's the back end of the administration office.

18 Q Have we gone through the whole office at this point?

19 A Pretty much, yes.

20 MR. JENKS: All right, I will stop the tape

21 here.

22 (Videotape is stopped.)

23 Q You are familiar with the layout of Sterling Who's
24 Who as well; am I correct?
25 A Yes.

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1 MR. JENKS: I will ask the government to

2 stipulate that Defendant's Exhibit AC and AD in evidence

3 were made on March 30th, 1995.

4 MR. WHITE: You are asking me?

5 Yes, that's correct.

6 MR. JENKS: And I will play for the record,

7 Government's Exhibit AD.

8 Q Would you be kind enough to do the same thing for us.

9 (Videotape is played.)

10 THE WITNESS: That is the entranceway as you came

11 off the floor at Sterling Who's Who, the Lexington Avenue

12 location.

13 That was a mirrored wall with the emblem and the

14 seating area.

15 Q You had offered the use of this office for members to

16 use if they needed to have conferences or meetings in

17 Manhattan; is that right?

18 A That is correct.

19 Q And members would also have the availability of a

20 telephone and a fax machine if needed?

21 A Yes.

22 Those -- as the elevators opened right on to the

23 entrance there, then you walk through the two doors, and
24 that was the reception area.
25 Q Do you know what happened with all that artwork on

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1 the area there?

2 A I have no idea.

3 This is still the reception desk. That's a

4 seating area, waiting area.

5 You can see, if my memory serves me correctly,

6 there were two or three small conference rooms right there

7 with telephones.

8 Q Right in the front as you walk in the office?

9 A Right. If a member was in the office and wanted to

10 avail themselves for an hour or so, they were right there.

11 Those are two doors that go right back to -- now

12 there is a section and a hallway.

13 You are looking down the hallway. I believe you

14 are looking down the hallway toward the outside offices,

15 if I am correct.

16 Q Did you have an office in the Sterling Who's Who

17 office in Manhattan?

18 A I had an office available to me regularly.

19 Q How often would you go in there, Ms. Benjamin?

20 A I was in there -- well, right before the raid I was

21 in there more frequently because the magazine was closing

22 at that point.

23 Those are the perimeter offices. I believe now
24 we are looking at -- I am sorry, that's Mr. Gordon's
25 office at Sterling.

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1 To the left there was a seating area that we are

2 looking at now.

3 That's the entranceway in the doorway, in and out

4 of Mr. Gordon's office.

5 Q Is that a sign on the door? That's not a corporate

6 sign, is it?

7 A No.

8 This is an office in the administrative office of

9 Sterling.

10 I am sorry, I apologize. That's a small

11 conference room that is adjacent to Mr. Gordon's office.

12 That is the secretarial area that is outside

13 Mr. Gordon's office.

14 That's the large conference room.

15 Q Was that conference room available for member use?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Would a member be able to bring eight or ten people

18 to have a meeting there on given notice to Sterling Who's

19 Who?

20 A Yes.

21 Q How much notice would you have to give to use that

22 conference room?

23 A We usually asked 24 to 48 hours. But if it was short
24 notice and it was available, I am sure we would have
25 accommodated them.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 This is an administrative office in the rear of

2 the administration department at Sterling.

3 That's the administration -- the administrative

4 area at Sterling.

5 Q Is it fair to say that the space at Sterling was

6 smaller than the space at Lake Success?

7 A No.

8 Q It was the other way around?

9 A Yes.

10 Q All right.

11 A I believe that is Maggie Swendseid's office.

12 Again, these were perimeter offices.

13 Now, I am not sure, but I believe that's the

14 office that I used when I was at Sterling.

15 I believe that was Margaret Basalone, the office

16 manager at Sterling.

17 That is just a storage area, a copy area, just

18 the copy area.

19 That was the copy area in the administrative

20 end.

21 Q Would the sales offices or -- were there sales

22 offices or sales cubicles on the other side of this

23 office?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Would you have any idea how much money is spent on

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 mailing out n omination ballots and literature and cards,

2 etcetera, in a given year?

3 A Not off the top of my head, I wouldn't have those

4 figures.

5 Q Do you know who would?

6 A The exact amounts or approximate?

7 Q Well, besides Mr. Gordon, do you know who else in the

8 company would have those numbers?

9 A I guess Maria Gaspar, or someone involved in the

10 accounting end.

11 Again, I think that was Maggie Swendseid's

12 office.

13 Q Okay.

14 Let me ask you this now: Have we seen most of

15 the offices at Sterling Who's Who?

16 A Yes, other than the sales room and the lunchroom.

17 Q The sales sections, I take it was the same as the

18 sales section at Lake Success, cubicles?

19 A Yes.

20 Q The same way, partitions?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And there was a lunchroom that was similar to the one

23 at Lake Success?
24 A Yes.
25 MR. JENKS: Thank you. I will stop the tape.

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1 (Videotape is stopped.)

2 Q A few more questions, Ms. Benjamin.

3 You believed there was nothing wrong with sending

4 a person a solicitation from a mailing list, did you?

5 A No.

6 Q You believed there was nothing wrong with sending a

7 person a solicitation from a selected mailing list, did

8 you?

9 A No.

10 Q In fact, you believed there was nothing wrong with

11 sending a person a solicitation from a mailing list that

12 had used the word "nominated" in it; is that correct?

13 A I had a question about it from time to time.

14 Q Right, but it was really an issue of semantics? Am I

15 correct? Is that a fair statement?

16 A That's what I believed.

17 Q You didn't believe you were inten ding to deceive

18 anyone by sending them a letter mentioning the words

19 "nominated" did you?

20 A No.

21 Q Because you saw Marquis Who's Who use the word

22 "nominated"?

23 A Yes.
24 Q Are you familiar with an association called the
25 National Association of Female Executives?

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1 A Yes.

2 Q While you were at Who's Who did you look -- do an

3 investigation sent to potential female executives sent by

4 that National Association?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Is it fair to say that that National Association of

7 female executives was a membership organization?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Did they use the word "nominated" also?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Marquis Who's Who used the word "nominated"?

12 A I never seen a letter from -- received a letter from

13 them, but what I have seen, yes.

14 Q You saw today Defendant's Exhibit Z in evidence, you

15 saw Mr. Schoer showing you this letter or Mr. Trabulus?

16 A Yes.

17 Q This is on Marquis Who's Who in America stationery?

18 A Yes.

19 Q McMillan directory division?

20 A Yes.

21 Q It mentioned the words "nominated", you have been

22 nominated, is that correct?

23 A Yes.
24 Q Is it fair to say you are a person familiar with the
25 Who's Who concept?

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1 A Yes.

2 Q You worked in it, you basically created a lot of the

3 things that happened at Who's Who along with Mr. Gordon;

4 is that correct?

5 A Yes.

6 Q So to speak you are the number two person?

7 A I don't know the pecking order.

8 Q But if not the number three, the n umber two person;

9 is that correct?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And is it fair to say that it is an industry wide

12 practice in Who's Who, to mention in the letter that a

13 person has been nominated?

14 A I don't know if I am in a position to answer that.

15 Q But you have seen it before?

16 A Yes.

17 Q In other membership organizations?

18 A Yes.

19 MR. JENKS: One more question, Judge.

20 Q You talked about the B balance; is that correct?

21 A Yes.

22 Q The B balance is the extra $97 that a member would

23 have to pay at a subsequent date; is that correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q It is part of the pitch, was it not, that a member

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1 would be told they have to pay $97 at a later date when

2 the Registry finished publication; is that correct?

3 A They were supposed to be told that, yes.

4 Q And why was it -- can you tell the jury why it was

5 that that $97 was held back until the publication of the

6 registry?

7 A It was my understanding that because of mail order

8 laws you have to fulfill any kind of a credit card, or any

9 type of mail order within a specified period of time,

10 which is, I don't think, any longer than like 90 days.

11 Q But it wasn't designed to scam or to cheat a

12 potential member out of money, was it?

13 A No.

14 Q It was a mail order rule -- withdrawn.

15 You believed it to be a mail order rule that you

16 couldn't charge until you were ready to ship almost?

17 A That's correct.

18 MR. JENKS: Thank you. I have nothing further,

19 Judge.

20 Thank you, Ms. Benjamin.

21

22 CROSS-EXAMINATION

23 BY MR. LEE:
24 Q Good afternoon.

25 A Good afternoon.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Benjamin-cross/Lee


1 Q I am Winston Lee. I represent Laura Weitz. You know

2 her, correct?

3 A Yes.

4 Q You just mentioned that Who's Who was a membership

5 organization. Is that what you would call Who's Who, a

6 membership organization?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And would I be correct in?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Would I be correct in stating that to your knowledge,

11 not all Who's Who type organizations were membership

12 organizations; is that right?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q And the distinction is that a membership organization

15 is one where after the member had purchased the

16 membership, the organization would thereafter still

17 continue to provide service and benefits; is that correct?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Whereas another Who's Who type organ ization, after

20 you purchase your listing, that would basically be the

21 end, and that would be all you could get for your

22 membership fees? Is that correct? That's the distinction

23 between a membership versus non-membership organization?
24 A I would say that would be the distinction.
25 Q And it was your belief at Who's Who, one of the very

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 valuable characteristics of it is that it was a

2 membership, and offered these continuing services to its

3 members; is that correct?

4 A That is correct.

5 Q As far as the Tribute Magazine is concerned do you

6 recall occasions when Laura Weitz would come to you with a

7 member whom she was recommending, whom she thought would

8 be an excellent candidate to profile or somehow include in

9 Tribute?

10 A Abs olutely.

11 Q You say that enthusiastically, she was enthusiastic?

12 A Absolutely so.

13 Q Would you say she shared your belief that this

14 magazine was a very valuable benefit that Who's Who was

15 offering to its members?

16 A I think everyone felt that way.

17 Q And she, as far as you know, she would not receive

18 any extra compensation, or anything for coming to you and

19 making these recommendations; is that correct?

20 A Correct.

21 Q And would you agree that she went out of her way to

22 try to -- in a genuine effort, to try to help a member to

23 get more benefit from their membership? She went out of
24 her way to try to recommend people she felt deserving to
25 be highlighted in the Tribute Magazine; is that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A Yes.

2 Q And I assume while she is utilizing her time to come

3 and make these recommendations, she took away from her

4 time to try to perhaps make -- speak to people and perhaps

5 earn more of a living for herself; would that be a fair

6 statement?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And now, just, if it wasn't clear before, whenever a

9 member would avail him or herself of these benefits,

10 perhaps a credit card or something the salesperson would

11 not receive any sort of compensation for that?

12 A I don't believe they did.

13 Q And over the years that you have known Laura Weitz,

14 did you come to an opinion as to the way that she

15 performed her duties on the job?

16 A She was very diligent and professional in my opinion.

17 Q She was professional in all appearances from your

18 interactions with her?

19 A Very much so.

20 Q Was there ever any occasion that she did or said

21 anything that indicated to you that there was a belief on

22 her part that she was doing anything but offering a

23 valuable service and product to the members that she dealt
24 with?
25 A I didn't have occasion to be there when she was

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1 actually speaking to the members. All I can say is on a

2 professional level, my interactions with her were always

3 very professional. I had a lot of respect for Laura.

4 Q To your knowledge, can you point to anything she ever

5 said or anything she ever did that indicated a belief on

6 her part that she was misleading or deceiving people?

7 A No.

8 Q That anything you can point to that she heard -- she

9 did or said that would indicate a belief that she was

10 defrauding people and selling them a worthless product?

11 Anything?

12 A No.

13 MR. LEE: I have no further questions.

14

15 CROSS-EXAMINATION

16 BY MR. GEDULDIG:

17 Q Ms. Benjamin, you testified on direct examination, I

18 think, when Mr. White was asking you some questions, about

19 a sales meeting that was held after the cancellation of

20 the Hilton Head seminar. Can you recall that?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Let me also ask you, do you recall taking part in an

23 interview with Mr. White and perhaps some other people by
24 January 11th, 1996?
25 A I am not terrific with dates. If you give me a

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 location or --

2 Q Let me show you something.

3 This is Government Exhibit 7-D, I think.

4 (Handed to the witness.)

5 Q If you would, would you look at what I handed up

6 there.

7 Does that refresh your recollection that January

8 11th, 1996, may have been a date in which you took part in

9 an interview with Mr. White?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Okay.

12 During the course of that interview, did you

13 explain to Mr. White about the seminar that had been

14 planned for Vietnam and Hong Kong?

15 A I believe I did.

16 Q And during the course of that interview, you also

17 spoke to him about the seminar that had been planned for

18 the conference that had been planned for Hilton Head; is

19 that right?

20 A I believe I did, yes.

21 Q And you also told him that during the course of that

22 interview during the -- about the sales meeting that took

23 place after the Hilton Head conference had been
24 suspended -- had been cancelled?
25 A I believe I did.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4141
Benjamin-cross/Geduldig


1 Q And during the course of explaining to him that a

2 sales meeting was held, and salespeople were told that the

3 Hilton head conference had been cancelled, you also gave

4 him the names of people who were present for that meeting?

5 A I may have, yes.

6 Q Let me show you a document, and see if this refreshes

7 your recollection.

8 (Handed to the witness.)

9 Q Just read that to yourself, if you would.

10 A Uh-huh.

11 Q Does that refresh your recollection that you told him

12 about the meeting and gave him names of people who might

13 have attended that meeting?

14 A I don't know if this relates to that. It is

15 somebody's notes.

16 Q Yes, it is.

17 Let me ask you this question: Do you have any

18 recollection at that meeting, at that sales meeting that

19 took place after the cancellation of the Hilton Hea d

20 seminar -- would I be correct in saying that Annette Haley

21 was not present for that meeting?

22 A I don't believe -- I don't remember if she was or she

23 wasn't.
24 Q Do you recall if there were any -- let me ask you if
25 the notes that you have in front of you appear to reflect

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4142
Benjamin-cross/Geduldig


1 the interview that you had with Mr. White on January 11th,

2 1996?

3 A It is kind of hard to read these notes.

4 May I ask, am I on the right page?

5 Q The second page on the bottom.

6 THE COURT: The question is: By looking at those

7 notes can you answer these questions? In other words,

8 those notes are intended to refresh your recollection.

9 THE WITNESS: But the notes --

10 THE COURT: Excuse me. Listen to me.

11 THE WITNESS: Okay.

12 THE COUR T: They are intended to refresh your

13 recollection. If they don't, say so.

14 THE WITNESS: The only thing I am questioning is

15 that these notes don't reflect --

16 THE COURT: They may be a menu for the latest

17 restaurant, with the salad that the New York Times had in

18 its paper yesterday. I don't care what they are, but

19 looking at that, does that refresh your recollection as to

20 this interview that counsel is talking about? Yes or no?

21 THE WITNESS: I remember having the interview.

22 And I do remember --

23 THE COURT: Listen to me, will you? If you don't
24 understand what I am saying, tell me.
25 Looking at those notes, does that refresh your

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4143
Benjamin-cross/Geduldig


1 recollection about an interview you had with Mr. White?

2 Yes or no?

3 THE WITNESS: No.

4 THE COURT: Okay.

5 THE WITNESS: The notes are difficult to read.

6 THE COURT: That's all.

7 Counsel wants to ask you some questions about

8 what took place at the interview.

9 THE WITNESS: Okay.

10 THE COURT: He wants you to look at that and see

11 if it refreshes your recollection as to what took place at

12 the interview.

13 THE WITNESS: I am sorry, I misunderstood. I

14 thought he was referring for me to read the bottom of the

15 page and answer based on that. I didn't understand what

16 the question was. I apologize.

17 THE COURT: That's okay.

18 Q Let me see if I can rephrase it --

19 THE COURT: We spent ten minutes on this

20 already. And maybe we can go for more.

21 Q Would I be correct in saying you had an interview

22 with Mr. White?

23 A Yes, and Biegelman.
24 Q And there was a fellow named Agostino?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4144
Benjamin-cross/Geduldig


1 Q Your attorney?

2 A He represented the company I worked for.

3 THE COURT: Is that A G O S T I N O?

4 THE WITNESS: Yes.

5 Q He was there to assist you about a number of things

6 in that interview?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And you spoke about a number of things at the

9 interview?

10 A Yes.

11 Q One of the things you spoke about was the sales

12 meeting that took place after the cancellation of the

13 Hilton Head conference?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And my question to you is: Am I not correct in

16 saying that when you told Mr. White of the people who were

17 present for that sales meeting, you did not say to him

18 that Annette Haley was present for the meeting?

19 A I don't recall if I said she was present or she

20 wasn't.

21 Q Okay.

22 A I don't remember specifics.

23 Q As you sit here now, you recall that sales meeting?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Can you tell us whether or not Annette Haley was

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4145
Benjamin-cross/Geduldig


1 present for that meeting?

2 A I don't recall. I don't recall who was present at

3 that meeting.

4 Q Okay.

5 Now, you said it was a sales meeting, and I

6 believe you testified on direct that it was at some point

7 in time as many as 12 to 15 people at the meeting?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And I believe you also testified at some point today

10 that there may have been as many as 45 people or 50 people

11 working at the Lake Success office; is that correct?

12 A Yes, that's correct.

13 Q And Ms. Haley worked at the Lake Success office?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And the major por tion of the people who worked in the

16 Lake Success office were in the sales office; is that

17 right?

18 A Yes.

19 Q So, of the 45 or 50 people who worked at Lake Success

20 at the time that this sales meeting was held, what was the

21 number -- how many people worked in the sales office of

22 that 45 or 50 people, approximately?

23 A 35, 40.
24 Q So, if there was a meeting held of salespeople
25 regarding the cancellation of the Hilton Head office, you

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4146
Benjamin-cross/Geduldig


1 said there were ten or fifteen people present; is that

2 right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q So, there are as many as 20 or 25 people from the

5 sales office who did not take place in that sales meeting

6 being advised that Hilton Head was cancelled; is that

7 right?

8 A I would say that would b e correct.

9 Q Am I correct in saying that you can't recall today,

10 and those notes don't help you to recall as to whether or

11 not Annette Haley was there or not?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q Now, the Vietnam conference was also -- withdrawn.

14 No member of Who's Who Worldwide went on that

15 Vietnam/Hong Kong seminar; is that right?

16 A To what my knowledge is, no.

17 Q All right.

18 Was there ever a sales meeting held to advise the

19 salespeople that that seminar had not been successful?

20 A I don't know.

21 Q Did there ever come a point in time that you told

22 Mr. White -- withdrawn.

23 At this interview that you had with Mr. White
24 when Mr. Agostino was present, did you also have a
25 conversation, or did you tell him about two salesmen who

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4147
Benjamin-cross/Ge duldig


1 worked at Lake Success named Maxes and Graham?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And did there come a certain point in time you told

4 Mr. White that Maxes and Graham to your knowledge lied on

5 the phone during their pitches?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Is that accurate?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Now, you already testified that as you sit here today

10 you don't feel that you committed any crimes while working

11 at Who's Who Worldwide; is that right?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And you were second in command; is that right? You

14 were one of the top management people at Worldwide, at

15 Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And it is fair to say that you had more knowledge

18 about the operation of Who's Who Worldwide than just about

19 anybody else, other than Mr. Gordon?

20 A Certain aspects of it, yes.

21 Q You certainly had more knowledge about the operation

22 of Who's Who Worldwide than Annette Haley did; isn't that

23 right?
24 A Absolutely.
25 MR. GEDULDIG: I have no further questions,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4148
Benjamin-cross/Geduldig


1 Judge.

2

3 CROSS-EXAMINATION

4 BY MR. NEVILLE:

5 Q Hello, Ms. Benjamin. I am Jim Neville. I represent

6 Scott Michaelson. Do you know Scott?

7 A I do. I have not seen him in a while, but, yes, I

8 do.

9 Q Ms. Benjamin, I am going to hand you what is marked

10 as Defendant's Exhibit A-6. I am showing it to

11 Mr. White.

12 THE COURT: Abel 6?

13 MR. NEVILLE: My mistake, AG.

14 THE COURT: Okay.

15 (Handed to the witness.)

16 Q It is a photograph, right?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Do you recognize the person in that photograph?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Who is th at?

21 A Liz Sautter.

22 Q Is that photograph, does it depict Liz Sautter

23 accurately as she looked when you worked with her at Who's
24 Who?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4149
Benjamin-cross/Neville


1 MR. NEVILLE: I offer this, your Honor.

2 THE COURT: Show it to counsel.

3 MR. NEVILLE: I did, your Honor.

4 THE COURT: Any objection?

5 MR. WHITE: I am not sure it is relevant, but I

6 would not object, your Honor.

7 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit AG, Abel George,

8 in evidence.

9 (Defendant's Exhibit AG received in evidence.)

10 MR. NEVILLE: May I let the jury see it, your

11 Honor?

12 THE COURT: Surely.

13 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published

14 to the jury.)

15 Q Ms. Benjamin, you said that Liz Sautter was the

16 office manager in Lake Succ ess?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And she knew the ins and outs of the administrative

19 office?

20 A Yes.

21 Q The nuts and bolts of the business?

22 A Yes.

23 Q She had full knowledge of the procedures of the
24 mailings that went out?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4150
Benjamin-cross/Neville


1 Q She knew about the mailing list, right?

2 A Yes.

3 Q She knew more about this business than even you did,

4 didn't she?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Did Scott Michaelson have anything to do with the

7 mailings?

8 A No.

9 Q Did any of the salespeople have anything to do with

10 the mailings?

11 A No.

12 Q Do you understand that the salespeople here are

13 charged with conspiracy to commit mail fraud?

14 A I had no idea what they were charged with at all.

15 Q You realize this is a criminal trial?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Now, Liz Sautter had a company car that she used?

18 A Yes.

19 Q She was one of two or three people who had keys to

20 the office?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And Liz Sautter moved with grace and ease throughout

23 the entire office, the administration, the sales area,
24 everywhere, right?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4151
Benjamin-cross/Neville


1 Q Unlike the salespeople, who would not be able to

2 tread into that administrative room through the black

3 door, what did you call it, a Dutch door?

4 A Yes, it was a Dutch door.

5 Q Sometimes that top half would be open of that Dutch

6 door, but the bottom would be closed, making it very clear

7 that the salespeople were not to go in there; is that

8 right?

9 A That's right.

10 Q But Liz Sautter went in there, right?

11 A That was her office.

12 Q Did Liz Sautter, as far as you know, did she have any

13 knowledge of these membership ballots and, and where they

14 were kept and all that stuff?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Do you think that Liz Sautter maybe had a key to the

17 locked files where those membership ballots were kept?

18 A Yes, she did.

19 Q As far as you know did any of the salespeople ever

20 have access to any of those lead cards or nomination

21 ballots or any of the other things that were discussed?

22 A Not unless they were handed them by Mr. Gordon or the

23 group leaders.
24 Q And Liz Sautter would be one of the people who would
25 hand out these lead cards and nomination ballots to the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4152
Benjamin-cross/Neville


1 group leaders; is that right?

2 A That's right.

3 Q And even the group leaders were not allowed to go

4 into the administrative offices; is that right?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q I think you even said that Liz Sautter had something

7 to do with the bookkeeping before Maria Gaspar came on

8 board?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Before I showed you that picture of Liz Sautter, did

11 you already have, or could you say you already had an

12 image in your mind of what she looked like?

13 A Yes.

14 Q You knew her pretty well?

15 A I saw her everyday.

16 Q You worked with her?

17 A Yes.

18 Q I am not suggesting you are close friend, but you saw

19 her everyday?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Do you see her anywhere in this courtroom?

22 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

23 proceedings.)
24 A No.
25 Q Were you familiar with different salespeople at the



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4153
Benjamin-cross/Neville


1 business? In general did you kind of know who they were?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Have you ever heard of Robert Stanley?

4 A No.

5 Q How about Sam Christopher?

6 A It doesn't ring a bell.

7 Q Linda May?

8 A That sounds familiar.

9 Q Paul Ware?

10 A No.

11 Q How about Robert Bullock, B U L L O C K?

12 A That doesn't ring a bell either.

13 Q Michael Cain, C A I N?

14 A I am not 100 percent sure about that one.

15 Q How about Scott Matthews?

16 A Excuse me, you are asking me about people at

17 Worldwide?

18 Q I am asking you if you knew who these people were.

19 They are salespeople and if you knew anything about it.

20 A No.

21 Q Greg Miller?

22 A That doesn't ring a bell either.

23 Q How about Joe Par ks?
24 A That rings a bell.
25 Q What kind of bell does that ring?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4154
Benjamin-cross/Neville


1 A He was a salesperson there.

2 Q How about Kenneth McCarthy?

3 A Yes.

4 Q How about Jill Barnes?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And last but not least, Carl Roper?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Now, Sue Mantell was a salesperson at Who's Who

9 Worldwide; is that right?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And please correct me if I am wrong, but she was on

12 one occasion -- on one occasion she was fired, or there

13 was a threat to fire her for having lied, do you know

14 anything about that?

15 A I don't know the reason, but I know her job was

16 either in jeopardy or she was terminated after a period of

17 time.

18 Q So you weren't present, or you didn't witness when

19 she begged for her jo b back?

20 A No.

21 Q And was granted that pardon?

22 A No.

23 Q You weren't there for that?
24 A No.
25 Q Okay.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4155
Benjamin-cross/Neville


1 You spoke about Laura Weitz being professional

2 and energetic?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Scott Michaelson was also?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Annette Haley was also?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And probably one of the people who was most energetic

9 about his job was Mr. Rubin; is that right?

10 A That's correct.

11 Q Extremely energetic.

12 Isn't it fair to say that Mr. Rubin was

13 passionate about his job?

14 A He was very passionate about everything he did at

15 work.

16 MR. NEVILLE: Thank you. I have no further

17 questions.

18

19 CROSS-EXAMINATION

20 BY MR. DUNN:

21 Q Good a fternoon, Ms. Benjamin.

22 A Good afternoon.

23 Q My name is Thomas Dunn. I represent Steve Rubin.
24 I would like to ask you a couple of questions, if
25 I may about your workings with Tribute and some of the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4156
Benjamin-cross/Dunn


1 goals you had for Tribute.

2 Basically you were the person who ran Tribute; is

3 that correct?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And is it fair to say that at about the time of this

6 raid it was your goal to get advertising for the magazine

7 from Fortune 500 companies; is that fair to say?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And is it fair to say that it was your belief that

10 someone with some sales experience might be used to try to

11 get that advertising for the Tribute Magazine?

12 A Yes, that's correct.

13 Q And did you have any people in mind from the sales

14 f orce at Who's Who Worldwide to use to obtain that

15 advertisement from Fortune 500?

16 A I remember having a dialogue with Steve Rubin about

17 it because of his enthusiasm.

18 Q So, it would it be fair to say that if the company

19 had continued to -- withdrawn -- withdrawn.

20 Is it fair to say if you had gone that route to

21 get the advertisement from the Fortune 500, that serious

22 consideration would have given to Steve Rubin for that

23 role?
24 A It is a possibility, but we hired an independent rep
25 on that.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4157
Benjamin-cross/Dunn


1 Q You said to Mr. Neville that Mr. Rubin was passionate

2 in his work?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q Is it fair to say he was one of the first ones in to

5 start the workday and one of the last ones out?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And is it fair to say that often times he spent more

8 time on the phone with potential members than other

9 salespeople?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And would it be fair to say that in the forms that

12 salespeople are given when they take down information

13 during interviews, that Mr. Rubin would put more

14 information down on those forms than was necessary or

15 requested by the supervisory personnel at Who's Who

16 Worldwide?

17 A I would not have cause to see the sales orders, but

18 when he would give me information about people he proposed

19 for Tribute he would give me an extensive amount of

20 information.

21 Q Is it fair to say that it is on a daily basis that

22 Mr. Rubin would come into you with people he would be

23 recommending for Tribute?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Is it fair to say that you attributed that behavior

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4158
Benjamin-cross/Dunn


1 to his enthusiasm about his job?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Is it fair to say that he really believed in Who's

4 Who Worldwide?

5 A 100 percent.

6 Q You would say he really cared about his job?

7 A Yes, he did.

8 Q He cared about the people he was working with?

9 A I believe he did.

10 Q In fact, there were times he would bring you pastries

11 and things like that?

12 A Steve was very magnanimous with things he would do

13 for everyone.

14 Q Now, is it fair to say that because he would come in

15 with these recommendations for people to use in Tribute,

16 it was time away from the phone when he could be calling

17 potential members; is that correct?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q And he received no financial benefit from bringing

20 these people to your attention; is that correct?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q You testified you had a hard time remembering dates;

23 is that correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And you testified in fact that there was a time where

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4159
Benjamin-cross/Dunn


1 you say you were walking by where Steve Rubin was, and you

2 overheard a conversation he was having with a customer; is

3 that correct?

4 A That is correct.

5 Q And you really don't remember when that happened,; is

6 that correct?

7 A Not exactly the day, no.

8 Q You said that you are bad with dates; is that

9 correct?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And this is February 12th, 1998; is that correct?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And you are being asked to testify about something

14 that you think may have happened in 1994; is that correct?

15 A Yes.

16 Q So, it is over three and a half years ago; is that

17 right?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Now, yesterday you testified you thought it might be

20 in the late fall; is that correct?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And is it fair to say that this might sound like a

23 ridiculous question, but it is fair to say that winter
24 follows fall; is that correct?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4160
Benjamin-cross/Dunn


1 Q And winter begins on December 20th of every year; is

2 that right, or the 21st to some people; is that right?

3 A I guess so.

4 Q Well, it does, doesn't it?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And as you sit there now, you don't know whether you

7 heard this conversation in December, like December 14th,

8 or December 25th, or January of '95, you really don't

9 know, do you?

10 A I know that it was in the late fall. It was prior to

11 Christmas.

12 Q Prior to Christmas?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Now, if Liz Sautter put forth some information at

15 Who's Who Worldwide, is it fair to say that the

16 salespeople should believe what Liz Sautter said about

17 something?

18 A Yes.

19 Q If Liz Sautter said that she put Boris Yeltsin's name

20 into the system, and that became known to salespeople,

21 they should believe it, shouldn't they, if Liz Sautter

22 said it?

23 A If Liz said it, yes.
24 Q So, if Liz Sautter said that Boris Yeltsin was in the
25 system, there would be no reason for Mr. Rubin to

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4161
Benjamin-cross/Dunn


1 disbelieve it, if she said it, if she put him in the

2 system?

3 A No.

4 Q And there were an awful lot of Russian people who

5 were members; is that right?

6 A T hat's correct.

7 Q And that is something that was encouraged at Who's

8 Who Worldwide; is that right?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And the salespeople, you didn't really interact with

11 the salespeople; is that correct?

12 A Other than their suggestions for Tribute and things

13 like that, no.

14 Q And as was asked before -- withdrawn.

15 There were times at Who's Who Worldwide when

16 there were as many as 50 salespeople; is that correct?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And it is your testimony that you have recollection

19 of meeting with 10 to 15 people concerning the Hilton Head

20 conference; is that correct?

21 A That is correct.

22 Q As you sit there now, you don't have an independent

23 recollection as to who those ten to fifteen people were;
24 is that correct?
25 A That's correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4162
Benjamin-cross/Dunn


1 Q Now, you met several times with agents from the

2 United States Government and prosecutors from the United

3 States Government; is that correct?

4 I will withdraw the question.

5 A Please.

6 Q Did you meet with members of the prosecution team,

7 either agents of the Postal Service, or Assistant U.S.

8 Attorneys?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And at any time, either at those meetings or in

11 meetings with your attorney were you shown a complaint

12 which made reference to a number of people arrested at

13 Who's Who Worldwide or Sterling Who's Who?

14 A A complaint?

15 Q Yes, like a book.

16 A No.

17 MR. DUNN: Can I have just a moment, your Honor?

18 THE COURT: Yes.

19 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

20 proceedings.)

21 MR. DUNN: Your Honor, I would like to show this

22 to the government.

23 THE COURT: Yes.
24 MR. DUNN: May I approach, your Honor?
25 THE COURT: Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4163
Benjamin-cross/Dunn


1 (Counsel approaches the witness stand.)

2 Q Ms. Benjamin, I would like you to look at what is

3 marked for Identification as Defendant's Exhibit AE and

4 AF. I would like you to take a look at those and see if

5 you recognize that.

6 A That's Steve Walden.

7 Q And you know him as Steve Rubin; is that correct?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Now, that photograph, besides recognizing the person

10 in the photographs, do you recognize where those were

11 taken?

12 A They appear to be in the office at Lake Success.

13 Q At Who's Who Worldwide?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And does it appear to be an accurate representation

16 of the location at Who's Who Worldwide where M r. Rubin

17 sat?

18 A Yes.

19 MR. DUNN: Your Honor, I would move this in

20 evidence as Defendant's Exhibit AE and AF.

21 THE COURT: Any objection?

22 MR. WHITE: No, your Honor.

23 MR. DUNN: I would ask they be published to the
24 jury, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Before you do that, AE and AF,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4164
Benjamin-cross/Dunn


1 Defendant's Exhibits are marked in evidence.

2 (Defendant's Exhibit AE received in evidence.)

3 (Defendant's Exhibit AF received in evidence.)

4 MR. DUNN: Can I give one to the front row and

5 one to the back row?

6 THE COURT: No. You will do it the way I want it

7 done.

8 MR. DUNN: That's why I ask.

9 THE COURT: Good try.

10 MR. DUNN: Your Honor, I want to show a minute of

11 this to Ms. Benjamin if I may. It is Defendant's Exh ibit

12 AC, the video of Who's Who Worldwide.

13 (Videotape is played.)

14 Q Now, if you look at this, is this past your office?

15 A It looks like it is administration.

16 Q And that's Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?

17 A That's the administrative offices, yes.

18 Q What is that?

19 A Cabinetries, and inside the administration.

20 MR. DUNN: I am going to fast forward it a little

21 bit.

22 Q Now, where is this?

23 A The hallway to the left. To the left would be
24 Mr. Gordon's office, and my office would be all the way
25 down to the other end.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4165
Benjamin-cross/Dunn


1 MR. DUNN: I am going to fast forward it again.

2 THE DEFENDANT RUBIN: That's it there.

3 Q Now, this area is where the group leader would sit or

4 the salespeople?

5 A No, the s alespeople.

6 Now, that's where the group leaders would sit.

7 Q Is that the salesperson area or group leader?

8 A It is still group leader, and someone who would be

9 the clerical.

10 Q Now, is this getting into the sales area here?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And that's also the sales area?

13 A It appears to be.

14 Q We are going down this hall over here, that appears

15 to be the sales area also?

16 A Down here to the left, the black cubicles, yes, that

17 was the sales area.

18 MR. DUNN: If I can just have a moment?

19 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

20 proceedings.)

21 If I can take a look at the photographs again.

22 JUROR NO. 5: They are right there.

23 Q I would like you to take a look at AE and AF again.
24 Is it fair to say that there is a wall that
25 basically is jutting to the back, at the back of



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4166
Benjamin-cross/Dunn


1 Mr. Rubin; is that correct?

2 A This here, yes, uh-huh. This one?

3 Q Right.

4 A Seats changed all the time.

5 MR. DUNN: If I can just have a moment, your

6 Honor.

7 THE COURT: Yes.

8 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

9 proceedings.)

10 MR. DUNN: If I can approach, your Honor?

11 THE COURT: At any time.

12 (Counsel approaches the witness stand.)

13 Q If you can take a look at this, Ms. Benjamin.

14 A Yes.

15 Q If I were to tell you this is a diagram of Who's Who

16 Worldwide, the interior, and this would be Bruce Gordon's

17 desk here.

18 A Yes.

19 Q And this is the conference room. And your office is

20 here?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And is it fair to say that you would have to travel

23 quite a dis tance to get over where the salespeople would
24 be? They would be over in this area here; is that
25 correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4167
Benjamin-cross/Dunn


1 A Yes.

2 Q And is it fair to say that in certain areas, if you

3 were walking down a corridor past someone who had a seat,

4 or an area at the wall, there would be no purpose for

5 walking by that; is that correct?

6 A It would depend. Sometimes I would have to return

7 papers to one of the salespeople, or ask them to get in

8 touch with someone.

9 Q But if someone was the last person located in the

10 area with his back to the wall, there would be no purpose

11 for you to be going past, walking past that person; is

12 that correct?

13 A It depended who I was going near or what I was

14 doing.

15 MR. DUNN: I just need one more moment, your

16 Honor.

17 THE COURT: Yes.

18 MR. DUNN: I would like to give these back to the

19 jury, they were viewing it.

20 THE COURT: Sure. Do you remember who had it.

21 MR. DUNN: I think it was the back row.

22 THE COURT: They remember anything.

23 (Exhibits referred to returned to the jury.)
24 MR. DUNN: I have no further questions, your
25 Honor.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4168
Benjamin-cross/Dunn


1 THE COURT: Anything else?

2 Redirect examination?

3 MR. WHITE: Yes, your Honor.

4

5 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

6 BY MR. WHITE:

7 Q Now, Ms. Benjamin, you said that -- I guess it was

8 this morning -- that you were aware of a company called

9 Williams, or an operation called Williams Who's Who?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Tell us again what Williams Who's Who was?

12 A It wa s another Who's Who concept that Mr. Gordon had

13 come up with for people who were not in the top ranking

14 executive suite.

15 Q And have you ever heard of Summit, S U M M I T, Who's

16 Who?

17 A I am not sure which, but either Williams was changed

18 to Summit, or the Summit name was changed to Williams.

19 Q Irrespective of the name change, it was the same

20 thing?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Is that what you are saying?

23 A Yes, that's correct.
24 Q If you can take a look at Government's Exhibits --
25 that binder which starts with Government's Exhibit 900 in

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4169
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 evidence.

2 (Handed to the witness.)

3 Now, if you can page through, say, the first ten

4 exhibits there, and if you can look at each one, under --

5 let me back up.

6 Th ose are invoices from Listworks for mailing

7 lists; is that right?

8 A That's correct.

9 Q And under where it says Listworks, it says mailer; is

10 that correct?

11 MR. TRABULUS: Are we on a particular exhibit

12 now?

13 MR. WHITE: 900.

14 MR. TRABULUS: I thought we were on the first

15 ten; is that right?

16 Q It says mailer?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And below that it says offer?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And next to it is your name and it says Registry of

21 leaders; is that right?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q Now, page through those first ten exhibits looking at
24 what is listed on each one after where it says "offer."
25 You don't have to read it aloud, just look at it.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4170
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 A I am sorry?

2 Q Just review all ten to yourself.

3 A All right.

4 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

5 proceedings.)

6 A Okay.

7 Q Turn to Exhibit 933.

8 A Okay.

9 Q And look in the same field there where it says offer?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Now look at the next ten exhibits after that.

12 A You mean up through 942?

13 Q Yes.

14 A Yes.

15 Q And having looked at those do the invoices indicate

16 whether the mailing lists are for Worldwide or Sterling as

17 opposed to Summit Who's Who?

18 MR. TRABULUS: Objection to form, your Honor.

19 Information which one is Summit?

20 THE COURT: Overruled.

21 MR. TRABULUS: I don't know which one he is

22 talking about.

23 THE COURT: Show it to counsel.
24 MR. WHITE: Starting at 933 to 942.
25 By the way 933 through 942 are simply for

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

4171
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 identification. They are not in evidence.

2 THE COURT: All right.

3 Q Now, the mailing lists that are for Sterling or for

4 Worldwide, do the invoices indicate that in some way?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Now, if you flip back to 900, the first ten you

7 looked at, how can you tell it is from -- for Sterling or

8 Worldwide?

9 A Next to offer, it says offer colon, Registry of

10 leaders, Sterling.

11 Q If an invoice next to that offer part said Summit,

12 who would that invoice be for?

13 A More than likely Summit/Williams.

14 Q If it says Registry of leaders, Sterling, who is the

15 mailing list for?

16 A Worldwide or Sterling.

17 Q Okay.

18 Now, do you remember looking at the telemarketing

19 slips for the Airborne Express and the auto discounts;

20 correct?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And Mr. Trabu lus asked you if you spoke to members,

23 and if any member expressed to you if they cared as to
24 whether or not Who's Who was getting money as a result of
25 the benefits; do you remember that?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4172
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 A Yes.

2 Q And now, what was your answer to that?

3 A I didn't recall any such conversation.

4 Q And is it fair to say that the members couldn't

5 explain about that because they didn't know?

6 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.

7 THE COURT: Well --

8 MR. TRABULUS: We have the Tribute Magazine,

9 which contains a reference to it.

10 THE COURT: I think you will have to precede that

11 with another question, as to whether the members were

12 advised of the financial arrangements.

13 MR. WHITE: She testified this morning she was

14 deleting it fro m the scripts. I will ask the question.

15 THE COURT: She deleted certain things from the

16 scripts. But were the members ever advised that Who's Who

17 Worldwide would receive a financial remuneration for these

18 extra benefits ordered by the members? Were they

19 advised?

20 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge.

21 Q Aside from the one ad in Tribute Magazine that

22 Mr. Schoer showed you, are you aware of any disclosure to

23 members that Who's Who Worldwide was getting financial
24 benefits from them using the benefits?
25 A No.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4173
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 Q And you described in response to Mr. Schoer's

2 questions that that line in the Tribute Magazine ad was a

3 mistake, right?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q Mr. Schoer said people make mistakes, and you agreed,

6 correct ?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And that only related to the auto insurance, right,

9 that ad that Mr. Schoer showed you?

10 A Yes.

11 THE COURT: Let us in on this ad. What did this

12 ad say? Did it say that Who's Who got a piece of the

13 action?

14 THE WITNESS: So to speak, yes.

15 THE COURT: Okay.

16 Q That didn't have to do with the Airborne Express, did

17 it?

18 A No.

19 Q Did it have to do with the long distance?

20 A No.

21 Q Telephone services?

22 A No.

23 Q Now, you spoke -- you were shown -- let me show you
24 Defendant's Exhibit AA, Abel Abel.
25 If I can read over your shoulder here, one of the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4174
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 benefits offered is the Who's Who Executive Club business

2 center. Do you see that?

3 A Yes.

4 Q It says attractive conference room for members and

5 such business services as state of the art computers,

6 faxes and phones, located in Manhattan's stunning

7 international plaza building; do you see that?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Do you see that?

10 A Yes.

11 Q So members could use the conference room at the

12 Sterling New York City office?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Was there a fee for that?

15 A Yes, there was.

16 Q Now, tell us how far from the New York City penthouse

17 on 54th Street the Sterling office was?

18 A The Sterling office was located on 59th Street and

19 Lexington Avenue. To my recollection the penthouse was on

20 54th right off second Avenue, between 2nd and 3rd.

21 Q Would you say a ten minute walk?

22 A Just about.

23 Q Now, you testified that Mr. Gordon told two Russian
24 gentlemen, that Russian members could stay at the

25 penthouse?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4175
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 A Yes.

2 MR. TRABULUS: Objection. It mischaracterized

3 the testimony. She testified --

4 THE COURT: I never do that. If it does, the

5 witness will say so.

6 Overruled.

7 Q To your knowledge, did any Russian members ever stay

8 there?

9 A Not to my knowledge.

10 Q To your knowledge did any member other than

11 Mr. Gordon stay there?

12 A Not that I am aware of.

13 Q Now, were there any luxury hotels near the Sterling

14 New York City office?

15 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.

16 THE COURT: Overruled.

17 A I can answer?

18 Q Yes.

19 A Well Manhattan is filled with luxury hotels.

20 Q Let's take the Plaza Hotel at 59th and Central Park

21 South; is that right?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And that's not too far away from the Sterling office;
24 is that correct?
25 A Correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4176
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 Q Now, if Who's Who members wanted to come into town

2 and needed a place to stay, could Sterling Who's Who put

3 them up at the Plaza Hotel?

4 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.

5 THE COURT: Yes. Sustained.

6 A Could they --

7 THE COURT: No. When I say "sustained" that's

8 the warning. Don't answer.

9 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.

10 THE COURT: Overruled, answer. Sustained, don't

11 answer.

12 THE WITNESS: All right.

13 THE COURT: Now, I assume you will be longer in

14 redirect.

15 MR. WHITE: Yes.

16 THE COURT: It sounds like you are just warming

17 up here.

18 MR. WHITE: It sounds that way?

19 Yes, I have more .

20 THE COURT: We will recess. You will have to be

21 back tomorrow morning -- I am sorry, tomorrow afternoon at

22 1:30. Prior to 1:30. We are going to start at 1:30.

23 Members of the jury, we will recess and give you
24 a chance to catch up on things tomorrow or go to work, one
25 or the other. You know my preference.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4177
Benjamin-redirect/White


1 Where are you going?

2 In the meantime do not discuss the case among

3 yourself or anywhere else.

4 Don't visit the Plaza Hotel.

5 Keep an open mind. Could to no conclusions. We

6 will recess until 1:30 tomorrow afternoon. Have a nice

7 day.

8 (Whereupon, at this time the jury left the

9 courtroom.)

10 THE COURT: As I said, you will be back before

11 1:30 tomorrow afternoon.

12 THE WITNESS: Yes.

13 THE C OURT: Did you get the order of witnesses

14 after Ms. Benjamin?

15 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I have to figure out what

16 it is, your Honor?

17 Did you want Ms. Benjamin to leave first?

18 THE COURT: No, it is not necessary.

19 Are you leaving anywhere now?

20 THE WITNESS: Yes.

21 THE COURT: Okay, you can leave.

22 (Whereupon, at this time the witness left the

23 witness stand.)
24 THE COURT: Let the record indicate that
25 Ms. Benjamin is leaving because she wants to depart the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4178

1 premises.

2 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, after Ms. Benjamin is

3 finished, we will have some more tapes, and we will have

4 Sal Ochoa, O C H O A. I think it will consume the

5 afternoon.

6 MR. JENKS: What happened to Mr. West?

7 MR. WHITE: Because of travel, and Mr. Ochoa is

8 from out of town.

9 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I have a bail

10 application before Chief Judge Sifton, and the earliest

11 they were able to put it on for was 11:15. They are aware

12 I am on trial and assured me I can get out of there

13 quickly. They couldn't put it on earlier because Judge

14 Sifton is sharing his courtroom with Judge Ross because of

15 the construction.

16 In the off chance I am late when I come back, I

17 have spoken with Mr. Jenks and spoken with Mr. Gordon.

18 They are both agreeable that Mr. Jenks can stand in for me

19 what -- for what I hope is a short period of time. My

20 expectation is on for 1:30.

21 THE COURT: You should immediately tell the

22 courtroom deputy that I want you taken immediately and get

23 you out immediately.
24 Do you want me to call Chief Judge Sifton?
25 MR. TRABULUS: I have already explained to



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4179

1 Mr. Kessler, the courtroom deputy, and he said he will

2 take care of me understanding the problem.

3 THE COURT: If there is any problem, you make

4 that application. And tell him I am directing you to do

5 that.

6 MR. TRABULUS: I will do so.

7 THE COURT: Mr. Gordon is agreeable because you

8 are late for any certain of time because of Mr. Jenks to

9 take over representation?

10 THE DEFENDANT GORDON: Yes.

11 THE COURT: He knows he is entitled to have you,

12 Mr. Trabulus, and your fine self in person here.

13 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.

14 We have discussed it, and also Mr. Jenks' clients

15 and Mr. Gordon have an identity of exposure and overlap.

16 THE COURT: Yes.

17 Is it all right with you, Mr. Gordon?

18 THE DEFENDANT GORDON: If he is not here by 1:30

1 9 I will scream and yell.

20 THE COURT: But you agree to go ahead in any

21 event?

22 THE DEFENDANT GORDON: Yes.

23 THE COURT: There is an identity of interests.
24 MR. WHITE: I don't believe the bankruptcy
25 trustee agrees that there is an identity of interests.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4180

1 MR. WHITE: You gave me a chance for some

2 research --

3 THE COURT: You have a problem because there is a

4 case that says the consistent statement must be identical

5 in nature in the attack. U.S. against Guido, G U I D O.

6 It is the seminal case.

7 MR. WHITE: I guess my question was, what area of

8 the rule should I focus on?

9 Your Honor is concerned that we are not meeting

10 the foundation on that, that it is not consistent?

11 THE COURT: Yes.

12 MR. WHITE: I thought the day before that there

13 was not an attack --

14 THE COURT: You showed me there was.

15 MR. WHITE: All right.

16 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Now you lose on different

17 grounds.

18 MR. WHITE: We will see.

19 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I understand Mr. White is not

20 intending to redirect Ms. Benjamin with respect to

21 anything concerning Mr. Reffsin. And I certainly trust

22 that representation from him. If anything does come up,

23 Mr. Geduldig assures me he covers it.
24 THE COURT: If Mr. White tells you he will not
25 get into anything, you can rely on it.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4181

1 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I absolutely do.

2 THE COURT: See you at 1:30.

3 Mr. Trabulus, you better give me the name of that

4 case. The sharing business may take longer than expected.

5 MR. TRABULUS: Apparently Judge Sifton has the

6 matter from 11:00 o'clock on.

7 THE COURT: It may or may not be.

8 Tell me the name of the case?

9 MR. TRABULUS: United States against Morrisey.

10 THE COURT: A sentence?

11 MR. TRABULUS: No, he was sentenced on a

12 violation of supervised release. It is a bail application

13 pending appeal.

14 THE COURT: That's all I have to know.

15 MR. TRABULUS: Judge, if worst comes to worst I

16 will adjourn it. I will be back here. I don't want to

17 spend -- my concern is not that I am spending time there,

18 but there is a problem on the highway.

19 THE COURT: The problem is that if Judge Ross who

20 is sharing the courtroom, is longer, and sometimes she is,

21 you will never get in there by 11:00 o'clock. That's the

22 problem.

23 So, I just want to call and let them know I am
24 interested.
25 MR. TRABULUS: All right.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4182

1 MR. NELSON: Your Honor, I have a plea tomorrow

2 before Magistrate Judge Gold.

3 THE COURT: You have a what?

4 MR. NELSON: A plea before Magistrate Judge Gold

5 at 10:30 in the morning. I advised both the Judge, the

6 Assistant and the courtroom deputy of the fact I am on

7 trial. They indicated they will take me first. I

8 adjourned the plea twice because of the commitments in

9 this matter, there is a 3030 issue.

10 THE COURT: That's Judge Gold?

11 MR. NELSON: Yes.

12 THE COURT: What is the name of your case?

13 MR. NELSON: United States versus Miranda,

14 R A M U L O, Ramulo, Miranda.

15 THE COURT: I will call.

16 MR. NELSON: Thank you, Judge.

17 (Case on trial adjourned until 1:30 o'clock p.m.,

18 Friday, February 13, 1998.)

19

20

21

22

23
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4183

1 I-N-D-E-X

2
W-I-T-N-E-S-S-E-S
3
PAGE LINE
4 D E B R A B E N J A M I N............... 3921 5
CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 3922 4
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 3940 19
CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4018 9
6
D E B R A B E N J A M I N.................... 4046 7
7 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)....................... 4048 1
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION............................ 4060 8
8 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)....................... 4061 17
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION............................ 4079 7
9 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)....................... 4080 4
CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4097 2
10 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4115 1
CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4135 22
11 CROSS-EXA MINATION................................ 4139 15
CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4148 3
12 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4155 19
REDIRECT EXAMINATION............................. 4168 5
13

14 E-X-H-I-B-I-T-S

15
Government's Exhibit 41-E received in evidence... 3973 5
16 Defendant's Exhibit Z received in evidence....... 4007 20
Defendant's Exhibit H received in evidence....... 4020 10
17 Defendant's Exhibit U received in evidence....... 4040 16
Defendant's Exhibit K received in evidence....... 4041 17
18 Defendant's Exhibit AB received in evidence...... 4049 15
Defendant's Exhibit AA received in evidence...... 4050 16
19 Defendant's Exhibit AE received in evidence...... 4050 17
Defendant's Exhibit AC received in evidence...... 4116 16
20 Defendant's Exhibit AD received in evidence...... 4116 17
Defendant's Exhibit AG received in evidence...... 4149 9
21 Defendant's Exhibit AE received in evid ence...... 4164 2
Defendant's Exhibit AF received in evidence...... 4164 3
22

23
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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This site is concerned with the Who's Who Worldwide Registry tragedy, and the double scandal of government and judical corruption in one of the dirtiest trials of the twentieth century and the concomitant news media blackout regarding this incredible story.

Sixteen weeks of oft-explosive testimony, yet not a word in any of 1200 news archives. This alone supports the claim that this was a genuinely dirty trial; in fact, one of the dirtiest federal trials of the 20th century.

Show your support for justice, for exoneration of the innocent, and perhaps most importantly, government accountability, by urgently contacting your Senator, the White House, and the U.S. Department of Justice.