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4309

4311

1 M O R N I N G S E S S I O N

2

3 (Whereupon, the following takes place in the

4 absence of the jury.)

5 THE COURT: We received a telephone call from

6 James Lennon, L E N N O N, alternate juror number 3, that

7 his father died over the weekend. The funeral is today.

8 He very much would like to remain in the case, he says.

9 And offers the suggestion that when he comes in tomorrow

10 he reads the transcripts. He will read every word, he

11 says, and be able to continue on the trial. It is an

12 original idea.

13 I do not intend to lose an entire day waiting for

14 alternate juror number three. However, he has an original

15 idea that he can catch up by reading the transcript.

16 Of course, there is some problem with that. The

17 problem is he is not going to be able to hear or see the

18 witnesses, which is a big problem for me.

19 MR. TRABULUS: Also, your Honor, is there a

20 version of the transcript available with the sidebars

21 eliminated?

22 THE COURT: That's true. I think we will have to

23 excuse alternate juror number three. Any objection to
24 that?
25 MR. TRABULUS: No.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4312

1 THE COURT: Is the jury here?

2 THE CLERK: I will check.

3 THE COURT: I am going to have the courtroom

4 deputy clerk tell the jurors that this alternate juror is

5 excused because he has a death in the family, namely, his

6 father died. Any objection to that?

7 MR. TRABULUS: No.

8 THE COURT: Okay.

9 The reason I am having her tell them that because

10 they will ask where he is, why isn't he here?

11 MR. NELSON: Your Honor, on a scheduling issue

12 with respect to tomorrow morning for one second.

13 Mr. Osman has a doctor's appointment for tomorrow

14 morning at eight a.m. He believes he can be here by 9:30

15 without difficulty. He cancelled the appointment on three

16 occasions, he had a CAT scan and MRI done of his stomach.

17 He has been ill for a while. The doctor felt it important

18 to visit with him tomorrow morning. Can we possibly start

19 at ten a.m. to assure that Mr. Osman is here on time?

20 THE COURT: Yes.

21 MR. NELSON: Thank you, your Hono r.

22 THE CLERK: Jury entering.

23 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
24 courtroom.)
25 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4313

1 Please be seated.

2 Thank you again for your punctuality, patience

3 and continued persistent dedication.

4 I was trying to get another P in there, but

5 couldn't do it.

6 As you know we have lost one of our alternate

7 jurors due to the death of his father over the weekend.

8 Let's proceed.

9 MS. SCOTT: The government calls Ms. Pincham to

10 the stand.

11 THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand.

12

13 W I L M A P I N C H A M ,

14 called as a witness, having been first

15 duly sworn, was examined and testified

16 as follows:

17

18 THE CLERK: Please state your name and spell y our

19 last name slowly for the record.

20 THE WITNESS: Wilma Pincham, P I N C H A M.

21

22 DIRECT EXAMINATION

23 BY MS. SCOTT:
24 Q Good morning, Ms. Pincham.
25 A Good morning.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4314
Pincham-direct/Scott


1 Q Can you tell us where you live?

2 A I live in Yelm, Y E L M, Washington.

3 THE COURT: The State of Washington?

4 THE WITNESS: The State of Washington, sir.

5 Q What did you do for a living?

6 A I am a counselor, and my husband and I own and

7 operate a child placing agency in the State of Washington.

8 Q Can you tell us what your job involves?

9 A My husband and I recruit, and I do the training of

10 foster parents to train them to be therapeutic foster

11 parents. And then we take the state's children that are

12 severely, severely disturbed. We place those children in

13 the foster homes and we do all the counselling and

14 monitoring to help those children succeed.

15 Q Can you tell us how this organization began?

16 A When I was 19 I adopted two little boys, one three,

17 and one almost five. I was pregnant with my first child.

18 Six months later I had my first baby, 14 months later I

19 had my second baby, and 12 months later I had my third.

20 By the time I was 22 I had five children. From that point

21 on we took in other people's children, and then we became

22 legal foster parents, and then decided that there must be

23 other people who cared as much as we did about children,
24 so we began to recruit those to help us with the kids.
25 Q How long has your organization been in existence?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4315
Pincham-direct/Scott


1 A The PACT Agency itself.

2 THE COURT: The what agency?

3 THE WITNESS: The PACT, P A C T, acronym for

4 Parent and Child Togetherness, agency was formed in 1988.

5 Q Have you ever heard of a company called Who's Who

6 Worldwide?

7 A Yes, ma'am, I had.

8 Q Did you eventually purchase a membership of that

9 company?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And approximately when were you first contacted?

12 A In late November, 1992 I received a letter saying

13 that I had been nominated to become a member of Who's Who

14 Worldwide and there was a card there that I filled out and

15 sent back in.

16 Q I am showing you Government's Exhibit 3-D, as in

17 Doctor, for identification.

18 (Handed to the witness.)

19 Do you recognize that?

20 A Yes, I do, the card I filled in and sent back. It is

21 my handwriting.

22 MS. SCOTT: I offer Government's Exhibit 3-D, as

23 in Doctor?
24 THE COURT: Any objection?
25 MR. TRABULUS: No.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4316
Pincham-direct/Scott


1 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 3-D, for Dog, in

2 evidence.

3 (Government's Exhibit 3-D received in evidence.)

4 Q Can you take a look at the back of the post cards and

5 tell us what the postmark says?

6 A November 27th, 1992, Olympia, Washington.

7 Q If you take a look at the front of the card, in the

8 lower right-hand corner there is a code printed at the

9 bottom.

10 A It says G A group dash L.

11 MS. SCOTT: Thank you.

12 May I publish Government's Exhibit 3-D?

13 THE COURT: Yes.

14 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published

15 to the jury.)

16 Q Now, Ms. Pincham, what happened after you sent back

17 that postcard?

18 A In early December of the same year I got a telephone

19 call from a lady identifying herself as a member of the

20 company.

21 Q And what happened in that conversation?

22 A She told me she had received the card back and she

23 was calling to conduct an interview. I asked her how
24 originally she had gotten my name. She said I had been
25 nominated by someone who considered me outstanding in my

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4317
Pincham-direct/Scott


1 profession or field.

2 I asked her who it was.

3 She said she was not allowed to tell me. Several

4 times I asked her how did they get my nomination.

5 She told me either someone who held me in the

6 very highest esteem nominated me, or else a member of the

7 organization itself had nominated me.

8 She told me that several benefits were part of

9 the membership, if I purchased a membership. And that I

10 would receive a free trip back to New York. I would

11 receive a magazine. I would receive free seminars and

12 work shops, and I would receive a plaque, and I would also

13 receive my name in the Who's Who global business leaders

14 in a book that they published.

15 I asked her how did people -- the first people

16 get started? And she didn't answer that. She did tell me

17 that most of the people who were nominated were rejected.

18 She did tell me it was a very prestigious award. Only the

19 cream of the crop got to be members.

20 I purchased a membership.

21 Q What, if anything, else did she say about how the

22 company got its members?

23 A Again, strictly by someone holding in you the highest
24 esteem and nominating you, or by a member of the
25 organization nominating you.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4318
Pincham-direct/Scott


1 Q Of the things she told you, what was the most

2 important thing that led to your purchase?

3 A The fact that someone thought enough about me to

4 nominate me for something I considered to be such an

5 honor.

6 Q What did you expect to do with such a membership?

7 A Part of having the name in the book, would have been

8 that there would be other people running the same type of

9 organization and agency that we have across the United

10 States to brain storm, get ideas. The other was just so

11 that the plaque could be on the wall, to let the person

12 who nominated me to see that, yes, I won.

13 Q Now, how, if at all, did your belief that you and the

14 other members had been nominated relate to your perception

15 of the value of this membership?

16 A Almost all of it for me was there, other than, like I

17 said, the free work shops. The same time that was

18 happening I was nominated for other awards in the state

19 and locality in which I reside. And because of what I do,

20 I like to know that I am not letting people down, so that

21 if they cared enough to nominate me for it, then I cared

22 enough for them to follow through.

23 Q So, if your name had been obtained not by nomination,
24 but by a mailing list, would that have affected your
25 decision to make a purchase?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4319
Pincham-direct/Scott


1 A I wouldn't have purchased.

2 Q And why is that?

3 A Because mailing lists can be from purchasing a pair

4 of nylons to going down a telephone list in a telephone

5 book. It has nothing to do with someone caring anything

6 about you.

7 Q How much did you pay for your membership?

8 A $290, plus seven dollars shipping.

9 Q How did you pay for it?

10 A With my credit card.

11 Q I am showing you Exhibit 3-B, do you recognize that?

12 A Yes, a copy of the invoice I received showing where

13 the $297 had been charged to my credit card.

14 MS. SCOTT: I offer Government's Exhibit 3-B.

15 THE COURT: Any objection?

16 MR. TRABULUS: No.

17 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 3-B, for Boy, in

18 evidence.

19 (Government's Exhibit 3-B received in evidence.)

20 Q What is the date on that invoice?

21 A 12/17/92.

22 Q And you say that that invoice reflects your purchase

23 of the membership from Who's Who Worldwide?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q I am also showing you Government's Exhibit 3-C, which

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4320
Pincham-direct/Scott


1 is in evidence.

2 (Handed to the witness.)

3 Q Now, does that document reflect personal information

4 about you?

5 A Yes, it does.

6 Q What do you see there relating to yourself?

7 A I see -- it looks like the information I was asked on

8 the telephone, as my name, and title, current

9 organization, my address, business phone number, and then

10 some personal information about myself.

11 Q If you look at the upper right-hand corner, do you

12 see a name appearing there?

13 A Yes, ma'am.

14 Q Can you read the name aloud to us?

15 A I believe it says Annette Colby or Holby. I can't

16 make out for sure the first letter of the name.

17 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, may I publish 3-C and

18 3-B?

19 THE COURT: Yes.

20 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published

21 to the jury.)

22 Q Now, did you receive a plaque, Ms. Pincham?

23 A Yes.
24 Q Did you receive a directory?
25 A No.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4321
Pincham-direct/Scott


1 Q Can you tell us the circumstances of the non-receipt

2 of the directory?

3 A When the lady first had spoken to me she told me I

4 would receive a free directory. Since it was already the

5 early part of December of '92, it was too late for my name

6 to go into that year's directory, because they have to be

7 turned in earlier in the year in order to print it on

8 time, so I would receive my free directory in December of

9 '93.

10 Q And what happened in 1993 relative to your directory?

11 A I received another bill for $97 from Who's Who.

12 Q What did you do when you received this bill?

13 A I wrote a letter across the bottom of it saying that

14 they had told me in the beginning that the directory was

15 free. I had al ready paid for the entire amount, and I was

16 not sending them any more money. I wanted my directory.

17 Q Now, did you have an opportunity to look at the

18 invoice, Government's Exhibit 3-B, before you testified?

19 A Yes, I did.

20 Q And were you asked to read the blue box at the bottom

21 of that invoice, the warning in the blue box?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And did that warning say in substance that you would
24 be billed separately for the registry later on?
25 A Yes, it did. But I did not receive that over the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4322
Pincham-direct/Scott


1 telephone. I did not receive that until after my credit

2 card had already been charged. And that was not said over

3 the telephone. That did not appear until it came in on my

4 invoice and was not even part of the original deal.

5 Q Now, did you receive a ny of the other items original

6 promised?

7 A No.

8 Q Were you contacted again?

9 A No, not after I wrote the letter back.

10 Q Were you ever contacted by anybody claiming to be a

11 member of Who's Who Worldwide who wished to network with

12 you?

13 A No, ma'am.

14 Q Finally going back to what you said earlier, you

15 mentioned you were told about a free trip to New York.

16 A Yes.

17 Q Can you explain in a little more detail what you were

18 told about that trip?

19 A That it would be a special dinner and we would be

20 brought back free to it and honored at the dinner. The

21 new members would be presented and honored at the dinner.

22 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, Ms. Pincham.

23 I have no further questions.
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4323
Pincham-cross/Trabulus


1 CROSS-EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. TRABULUS:

3 Q Good morning, Ms. Pincham. My name is Norman

4 Trabulus and I represent the person seated next to me, who

5 is Bruce Gordon.

6 A Good morning.

7 Q I gather you have received awards and recognition for

8 the work you have done?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And I gather you have helped a lot of people in your

11 work?

12 A I hope so, sir.

13 Q And I think we will agree that you are someone who is

14 deserving of recognition for what you have accomplished.

15 A Thank you, sir.

16 Q Now, I think your testimony here was that your first

17 contact was by receiving a letter and a card?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q And do you recall that you had at one point received

20 a questionnaire from the United States Postal Service?

21 A After that, yes.

22 Q Certainly, after that. And you filled it out?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And do you recall that you were asked a question in
25 that concerning how you were contacted?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4324
Pincham-cross/Trabulus


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And do you recall in response to that, writing in

3 telephone call originally, and then through the mail?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q And --

6 A Yes, sir, I wrote that.

7 Q And at the time you wrote that, was that your

8 recollection as to how you were first contacted?

9 A Yes, sir, because I was doing it actually in a

10 hurry. I had no idea what was happening, other than

11 simply answering a questionnaire.

12 Q But at the point in time you answered the

13 questionnaire, that's the way you remembered it?

14 A Yes, it was.

15 Q After that did you have occasion to discuss that with

16 anyone from the -- any postal i nspector over the telephone

17 or in person?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q And did you have occasion to discuss that with either

20 Ms. Scott, or Mr. White, who is the gentleman sitting to

21 her right?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q And when was the most recent time you first discussed
24 that subject, as to whether you were contacted by
25 telephone or by mail with them?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4325
Pincham-cross/Trabulus


1 A The first time that Mr. Al, I am not sure I am

2 pronouncing his name right, Pagano.

3 Q When was the most recent time you discussed that?

4 A That was the most recent time I discussed that, sir.

5 Q All right.

6 Has any one of them told you that from a mailing

7 list, there is no way that Who's Who Worldwide would have

8 had access to your telephone number?

9 A No, sir.

1 0 Q Has anybody from them told you that if in fact you

11 had been telephoned first before receiving anything by

12 mail, it would indicate that your name had been submitted

13 to Who's Who Worldwide by another member?

14 A No, sir.

15 Q And when was the first time -- withdrawn.

16 It was about a year after you first received the

17 original invoice that you received a second invoice for

18 the directory; is that correct?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q And when you received the second invoice for the

21 directory, was that the first occasion that you had to

22 think back about whether or not in that initial telephone

23 call you had been told anything about a charge for the
24 second directory -- excuse me, a charge once the directory
25 was delivered?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4326
Pincham-cross/Trabulus


1 A I don 't believe I understood the question, sir.

2 Q Sure.

3 When you received the first invoice, you didn't

4 read the material at the bottom in blue that talked about

5 being billed later on for the directory; is that correct?

6 A No, sir. In fact, I still don't remember saying that

7 billed for the directory. I remember it saying that it

8 was a split payment. In fact, the card I sent back in

9 expressly says there will be no charge to have your name

10 in the directory.

11 Q I in fact misspoke.

12 When you received the invoice, you didn't read

13 the blue box which indicated there would be an additional

14 payment down the once the directory was delivered?

15 A No, sir.

16 Q And between the time you received that invoice, the

17 first invoice, and the time you received the second

18 invoice, which indicated that the directory was going to

19 be forthco ming, you had no reason during that time to

20 think about whether or not in your first telephone call

21 you were told that there was going to be a second payment

22 down the road; is that correct?

23 A I am lost, sir.
24 Q Okay.
25 A I am sorry.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4327
Pincham-cross/Trabulus


1 Q I will rephrase the question.

2 After you got the first invoice, you had nothing

3 in your mind about their being a second payment, right?

4 A No, sir, because the original price I had been quoted

5 was the $290.

6 Q And then later on, about a year later, you received

7 it?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q And between the time you received the first invoice

10 and the time you received the second invoice, you didn't

11 think about what you heard in that telephone conversation

12 concerning billing, di d you? You had no reason to?

13 A No, sir, because I thought the $290 was the total

14 amount.

15 Q After you received the second bill, that's the first

16 time you had to think back to what you were told in the

17 initial conversation; is that correct, sir?

18 A Not on everything. Concerning the billing, yes. Not

19 on anything I was promised. Almost a year promised. I

20 received nothing. I received no call from New York --

21 Q Did you receive a plaque?

22 A Yes.

23 Q What did you do with the plaque when you received it?
24 A Hung it on the wall.
25 Q Where?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4328
Pincham-cross/Trabulus


1 A In my office.

2 Q Is it still there?

3 A No, sir.

4 Q Have you ever received a magazine from Who's Who

5 Worldwide?

6 A No, sir.

7 Q I think you indicate d that one of your purposes in

8 becoming a member was the possibility of brain storming

9 with other people who were in fields similar to your own;

10 is that right?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q And, of course, not having received the directory,

13 you never had occasion to find out as to whether there

14 were other people with whom you might have brain stormed;

15 is that correct?

16 A No, sir.

17 Q Let me ask you this: Let me ask you if the following

18 people were the kind you wanted to be brain stormed with

19 and in contact in your kind of work. Lydia

20 S H E L T O N, S H E L T O N, Shelton, Lydia, L Y D I A,

21 who is in the non-profit foster care business, and whose

22 major product and service was referrals for foster care,

23 is that someone you might have wanted to talk to?
24 A Possibly.
25 Q How about Pamela Norris Woods, the director and



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4329
Pincham-cross/Trabulus


1 founder of United Care, Inc., which specialized for

2 treatment of abused and abandoned children, located in Los

3 Angeles?

4 A Possibly.

5 Q She lists her expertise as counselling and social

6 work, is that someone?

7 A Possibly.

8 Q How about Loretta C. A M A R O, Amaro, vice president

9 of National Counselling and Placement Organization, whose

10 major product is training programs, had an expertise and

11 professional counselling, Loretta C. Amaro?

12 A I doubt that, sir.

13 Q That's sufficiently different from what you are

14 doing?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q How about Carolyn Carney, the director of the Freedom

17 Independent Living for the Blind who trains the blind and

18 mentally challenged and whose expertise is counselling to

19 maximize the potential for the physically and mentally

20 challenged, would that be somebody?

21 A No, sir.

22 Q How about Louie, L O U I E, Barrington, Jr., the

23 Florida regional director of the Eckerd, E C K E R D
24 Family Youth Alternatives, Inc. in Florida, business child
25 care in the expertise and therapeutic counselling?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4330
Pincham-cross/Trabulus


1 A I don't know, sir.

2 Q It is possible? Is that someone who you might

3 conceivably want to communicate with?

4 A Some of these might have been people I might have

5 been interested in meeting in one of the seminars, work

6 shops to see if we had anything in common. However, there

7 were no work shops.

8 Q And Stan V. Dale, the president and CEO of the Human

9 Awareness Institute in San Carlos, California, type of

10 business education --

11 THE COURT: You have to slow down, Mr. Trabulus.

12 You are rattling the things off. You are not stopping to

13 spell them. The reporter certainly doesn't know how to

14 spell these names. You are just proceeding to rattle them

15 off at a high speed so it makes it very difficult -- I

16 can't follow you myself to easily. You will have to slow

17 down, Mr. Trabulus.

18 MR. TRABULUS: Stan V. Dale, D A L E, the

19 president and CEO of the Human Awareness Institute,

20 business, education; producer of seminars, work shops,

21 books, publishing, worldwide marketing area, and an

22 expertise in education, counselling and publishing.

23 Would that have been someone you might have
24 wanted to have some communications with?
25 A I don't think so, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4331
Pincham-cross/Trab ulus


1 Q Because, again, it is your area -- your area is too

2 specialized, has a specialty not involved in that?

3 A We work with children six through 18, sir, who are

4 severely, severely traumatized, abused children. It takes

5 a lot of patience and expertise with their particular

6 problems. We do not work with the blind.

7 Q Do you work with mentally challenged people?

8 A Yes, sir, we do.

9 Q And how about would Cheryl Chapman, C H A P M A N,

10 the executive director of the Baptist Home for Children

11 and Families, which apparently runs residential group

12 homes, is that someone with whom you might have wished to

13 network?

14 A No, sir. We try to keep our children out of group

15 homes and mental institutions and jails. We try to keep

16 them in functioning stable family units.

17 Q Would you nevertheless have occasion to speak to

18 someone in a residential group home concerning possible

19 placement from a group home into a family?

20 A Yes. Our children come to us from the State of

21 Washington.

22 Q And would you agree that the names I have listed,

23 that I have given to you, and the descriptions I have
24 given to you as members of Who's Who Worldwide, show in
25 any event, that there is a potential of other members with

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4332
Pincham-cross/Trabulus


1 whom you would have had something in common and might have

2 gleaned some benefit through communication?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 MR. TRABULUS: I have no further questions.

5 THE COURT: Anybody else?

6 MR. GEDULDIG: I do, Judge.

7

8 CROSS-EXAMINATION

9 BY MR. GEDULDIG:

10 Q Ms. Pincham, you had a phone conversation with

11 someone from Who's Who Worldwide, that's the first time

12 you spoke with anyone from the organization; is that

13 right?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q Can I ask you if there was more than one

16 conversation, or that was the only one you had?

17 A You know, sir, I have racked my mind. It seems that

18 I remember there was a call from a gentleman after he

19 received my letter saying I was not going to pay that

20 bill. But it seems that there was, and he argued with me

21 about it. And I told him under no circumstances. I was

22 supposed to receive a free directory, did not receive it

23 nor any of the other benefits.
24 Q That second call you referred to would have happened
25 months later?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4333
Pincham-cross/Geduldig


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And the first call you got was an inquiry as to

3 whether or not -- withdrawn.

4 It was more of an interview about your personal

5 background and advising you that you had been nominated

6 for acceptance into the registry; is that right?

7 A An acknowledgment of the original letter I received

8 saying I was nominated, yes, sir.

9 Q And it was shortly after that telephone conversation

10 that you got the bill from Who's Who Worldwide?

11 A Yes. Because it was during that conversation that

12 the price was quoted to me, sir, and I accepted the

13 membership.

14 Q And so, the bill came, the credit card confirmation,

15 or the bill for the $290 came what would you say, a couple

16 of weeks after the telephone conversation?

17 A Probably thereabouts, two or three weeks.

18 Q And the second bill for the payment of the registry

19 came months after that; is that right?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q And the bill you got, the first bill you got had

22 contained the notification that there would be a second

23 bill coming when the registry had been published was known
24 to you months before you received this second bill; is
25 that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4334
Pincham-cross/Geduldig


1 A The answer to that could be yes and no, sir. Because

2 I was quoted the full price of $290.

3 Q I am just talking about the written bills you

4 received. I am not talking about the telephone

5 conversations at this point. I am just asking you if you

6 received that first bill with a notification that a second

7 bill would be coming months before you received the second

8 bill?

9 A Yes, sir, I did. I thought it was a standard form.

10 Q Okay.

11 And you saw -- you looked at the bill to make

12 sure that the amount was correct?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q And you generally looked at the bill, you didn't just

15 throw it into the garbage can; is that right?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q And you are not questioning that there was a notice

18 on that first bill telling you that there would be another

19 bill coming; is that right?

20 A I am not questioning that.

21 Q And it is also correct to say that at no point after

22 receiving that first bill did you call up Who's Who

23 Worldwide and ask anybody what's the story with this
24 second bill that is going to be coming when the registry
25 is published?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4335
Pincham-cross/Geduldig


1 A No, sir. Number one, I trusted them and number

2 two --

3 Q Your answer is you didn't call anybody?

4 A No, I didn't.

5 Q The second time you called is when you got the bill

6 mo nths and months later?

7 A I didn't call, sir. I wrote a note on the bottom of

8 it.

9 Q All right.

10 When you got the call, the woman who was talking

11 to you said that this call also could be serving as an

12 interview, is that right, or words to that effect?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q And she said the interview was for purposes of seeing

15 as to whether you were qualified for inclusion in the

16 registry?

17 A Yes, sir. And she also said the information she took

18 would be going back to a group of people to be reviewed.

19 Q And she took a bit of information from you; is that

20 right?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And did you volunteer any information other than what

23 she asked you about?
24 A No, sir.
25 Q And she explained what membership in Who's Who would

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4336
Pinc ham-cross/Geduldig


1 be, would entail; is that right?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q And she told you, to the best of your recollection

4 that the bill was $290 for the membership that you are

5 purchasing; is that right?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q And you said, and she also said to you that you were

8 going to get a free trip to New York City?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q And you were going to get a free dinner in New York

11 City?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q And you were going to get a free plaque?

14 A Yes.

15 Q That you were going to get a free registry?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q And you were going to get free seminars?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q What was the $290 you were paying, what was that for?

20 A I am supposing for all of that, sir.

21 Q Then it wasn't free, am I right or am I wrong?

22 A I have no idea, sir.

23 Q Well, you had the conversat ion, I didn't.
24 A I know.
25 Q And she is saying to you it is going to cost $290 --

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4337
Pincham-cross/Geduldig


1 A For the membership.

2 Q And the membership included such things as a plaque;

3 is that right?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q And she said that to you?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q And she said you are going to pay $290 to become a

8 member of Who's Who Worldwide; is that right? Is that

9 right?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q And she said, when you become a member you will get a

12 plaque, right?

13 A You will get a plaque, you will get a --

14 Q Let me ask the question.

15 You will get a plaque, you will get seminars, and

16 the opportunity to attend seminars that you wish to

17 attend; is that right?

18 A Yes.

19 Q You will get the use of an office in New York City if

20 you want it?

21 A No, sir.

22 Q You don't recall that?

23 A No.
24 Q You will get a trip to New York City?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4338
Pincham-cross/Geduldig


1 Q And you will get a registry?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q You will get a published registry?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q You will get a dinner; is that what your recollection

6 is?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q Would I be correct in saying that what she told you

9 was that these benefits would come if you were to become a

10 member?

11 A That's true.

12 Q To become a member you would pay, have to pay $290?

13 A That's true.

14 Q She did not say to you that these things were free.

15 She said to you that if you pay the membership charge you

16 will get the benefits; is that right?

17 A Well, I paid the membership and didn't get the

18 benefits.

19 Q Well, some of the benefits, you got a plaque; is that

20 right?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And whether or not you recall saying anything about a

23 second bill when the registry is published, and certainly
24 after the first bill you were told there that there would
25 be a second bill after the registry was published; is that

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4339
Pincham-cross/Geduldig


1 correct?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q And am I not correct that it could very well have

4 been that the woman said to you it is $290, and these are

5 the benefits you can receive if you become a member, some

6 benefits you have to go out and seek; is that right?

7 A No, sir.

8 Q You don't think so?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q You expect people to line up and call you in Yelm,

11 Washington, and sit down at a seminar?

12 A No. I expected the company to do what it said, and

13 notify me of where and when the seminars would be, and I

14 would attend and meet the people.

15 Q You made no effort to contact anybody certainly, or

16 to find out if there were other people -- I think

17 Mr. Trabulus just read off a list of names, and some of

18 the people you said you don't think you would be inclined

19 to meet with and the others that you might be inclined to

20 meet with?

21 A I couldn't get the names because I didn't get a

22 directory.

23 Q I understand that. And you didn't get a directory
24 because the company was asking you to pay an additional
25 $97 and you weren't prepared to pay it?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4340
Pincham-cross/Geduldig


1 A Even the card I sent in sai d there was no charge for

2 your name being in there.

3 Q I agree. Just try to answer my question.

4 Isn't it correct as you sit here now, you know

5 you would have gotten the registry if you paid the $97,

6 that second bill?

7 A No, sir, I don't know. I didn't receive any of the

8 other benefits except for a nine by 12 plaque.

9 Q In your work, is it correct to say that you deal with

10 a lot of government agencies?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q Isn't it fair to say you deal almost exclusively with

13 government agencies?

14 A No, sir.

15 Q And you place people in the government has

16 supervision, the State of Washington, and the localities

17 where you live, has supervision and the supervisory

18 authority to make certain that the children you place are

19 properly cared for; is that right?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Now, the cost of all that is not p aid by you, is it?

22 You don't pay for the state or the locality to supervise

23 the child you have placed in a particular home?
24 A No, sir.
25 Q The state pays for that, or the locality?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4341
Pincham-cross/Geduldig


1 A The state pays us and we provide that monitoring and

2 supervision.

3 Q So, your paycheck comes from the state?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q In every instance?

6 A Almost every instance. We have some private pay

7 clients.

8 Q All right.

9 They are very few in number; is that right?

10 A Yes, because we have a contract with the state.

11 Q And it is common for you to expect that any work you

12 do at all for -- with regard to the placement of children,

13 or with regard to the job that you do is paid for by the

14 government, by one government or anothe r?

15 A Through the taxpayer's money, yes, sir.

16 Q So you have come to expect if you do your job or

17 anything related to your job, the expenses come from the

18 government?

19 A That's true.

20 Q They provide you with things you have to have to do

21 your job?

22 A No, sir.

23 Q Is it conceivable to you that you misinterpreted what
24 the woman was saying to you over the phone during the
25 first conversation?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4342
Pincham-cross/Geduldig


1 A No, sir. I asked her too many times.

2 Q All right.

3 Among the things asked her is how you got named

4 or nominated?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q And she said to her knowledge you were nominated in

7 one of two ways; is that right?

8 A She did not say to her knowledge. She said it was a

9 fact.

10 Q She said that you were nominated either by someone

11 who knew about you; is that right?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Or it was the -- I can't think of the second way you

14 might have been nominated?

15 A One of the members.

16 Q One of the members in the registry would have

17 nominated you?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q And did you ask her if there were any other names

20 you -- other ways you might have been nominated?

21 A Yes.

22 Q What did she say?

23 A She said no. That the company did not solicit any
24 nominations. The reason so few were chosen is because all
25 were cast out except the cream of the crop and new members

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4343
Pincham-cross/Geduldig


1 were opened only by attrition.

2 Q And this was the information she gave to you?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q Now, did she tell you the percentage of people

5 accepted in terms of those rejected?

6 A I don't remember the actual numbers, but the

7 percentage of who were rejected were low.

8 Q Did she tell you the number of people in the

9 registry?

10 A No, sir.

11 Q Have you ever seen the registry?

12 A No, sir.

13 Q Do you know if it exists?

14 A I am sure it does, because I have been told by

15 Mr. White that it exists.

16 Q Mr. White told you it exists?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And that's the gentleman over here?

19 A That's right.

20 Q He never showed you the registry?

21 A He couldn't. We were talking on the telephone.

22 Q Did there ever come a point in time that you met

23 prior to coming here to testify today?
24 A I met him this morning.
25 Q That's the first time you met?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4344
Pincham-cross/Geduldig


1 A Yes.

2 Q Did you have conversations with Mr. Pagano?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q Did you ever have an eyeball conversation with

5 Mr. Pagano where you could look at him, he could look at

6 you?

7 A No, sir.

8 Q All these conversations were on the phone up until

9 the time you met Mr. White for the first time, when was

10 it, this morning?

11 A This morning.

12 Q That's the first time you have ever seen anyone from

13 the government side; is that correct?

14 A Ms. Scott visited me last night in the hotel room.

15 Q Any of these conversations you had over the phone or

16 the most recent ones you had with them in person, did you

17 ever ask them if the registry existed?

18 A I didn't have to. Mr. White ask me if I ever

19 received a copy. I said no. He said, do you know if it

20 existed?

21 He sa id -- I said no, and he said it existed.

22 Q Did you ever ask to see the entry of your registry?

23 A No.
24 Q You never paid for it?
25 A It was supposed to be a free copy.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4345
Pincham-cross/Geduldig


1 Q You would not have been pleased if you paid $290 and

2 got a registry that your name didn't appear in?

3 A I wouldn't be pleased if I got a plaque for $290, and

4 that's all I got.

5 Q I know you are annoyed, and try to answer my

6 questions, I will ask you questions, and if you can, try

7 to answer my questions.

8 If you paid $290 to be a member of this registry

9 and you found out that your name was not in the registry,

10 you would have been more annoyed than you are today; is

11 that correct?

12 A I would have been still annoyed.

13 Q You would have been complete ly taken, and you would

14 have paid $290 for absolutely nothing but a plaque?

15 A Sir, you don't understand. That's how I feel.

16 Q But you say you never asked about the registry, and

17 Mr. White told you that the registry exists?

18 A Yes.

19 Q You never asked Mr. White if you could see it?

20 A I actually didn't care, because the time had passed.

21 THE COURT: You will have to slow down a bit,

22 Mr. Geduldig.

23 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.
24 THE COURT: You have to wait until the question
25 is over before you answer, Ms. Pincham.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4346
Pincham-cross/Geduldig


1 If you talk at the same time the attorney does,

2 it is difficult for us to hear it and for the reporter to

3 take it down.

4 THE WITNESS: I am sorry, sir.

5 Q Let me show you what is marked as

6 Defe ndant's Exhibit Q in evidence, the Global Edition of

7 Who's Who.

8 At the top of the page as I have indicated to

9 you, I believe your name appears; is that right?

10 A Yes, it does.

11 Q Would you read it to yourself, please, what appears

12 underneath your name?

13 A Director --

14 Q You can read it to yourself.

15 A To myself, all right, sir.

16 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

17 proceedings.)

18 Q At is your name?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And is it fair to say the information appearing

21 underneath your name in the registry is accurate and

22 correct?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And that's the information you provided to the person
25 you provided when you spoke to them on the phone from

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4347
Pincham-cross/Geduldig


1 Who's Who Worldwide?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q And so, there is no question, is there, in your mind,

4 as you sit here today, that there is a registry, that your

5 name does appear in that registry, and the information

6 about you that appears in the registry is accurate and

7 correct?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q So, we know there is a registry and we know you got a

10 plaque; is that right?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q And one of the things that bothers you greatly is

13 nobody from the company called you for, I think you called

14 it brain storming; is that right? Isn't that your phrase?

15 A Brain storming is what I would have liked to have

16 done with other people I met either through the directory

17 or at the seminars or work shops.

18 Q And one of the things that annoys you is that there

19 was none of this brain storming. You wanted to do that

20 and it didn't happen; is that ri ght?

21 A I wanted to attend the seminars and work shops, sir.

22 Q Okay.

23 Is it also fair to stay that there was never a
24 time, either from the point in time you paid the $290,
25 until you got the second bill, that you ever called the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4348
Pincham-cross/Geduldig


1 company and say words to the effect, when is the first

2 seminar, or is there going to be a seminar, or what is the

3 story with seminars? You never made any inquiry regarding

4 the seminars?

5 A No, sir. I was expecting them to do what they said.

6 I work with 37 children and my time --

7 Q I understand. But the question is, you never called

8 at all to do anything with the seminars?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q I am right?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q And at the end of the telephone call, the first

13 telephone c onversation you had, did the person from Who's

14 Who Worldwide tell you that you had qualified in their

15 opinion for inclusion in the registry?

16 A Yes, sir. She said she could not say that for sure

17 because it still had to be reviewed, but in her opinion I

18 probably would be selected.

19 Q Did she tell you that people in the registry came

20 from all over the country?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q Did she tell you the number of people in the

23 registry?
24 A No, sir.
25 Q Did she say it was in the many, many thousands, tens

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4349
Pincham-cross/Geduldig


1 of thousands were in the registry?

2 A No, sir.

3 Q Did she tell you they had members overseas, in other

4 countries other than America?

5 A Not that I can remember, sir.

6 MR. GEDULDIG: I don't think I have any other

7 questions.

8 THE COURT: Anyone else?

9 MR. GEDULDIG: Just a second, Judge.

10 THE COURT: All right.

11 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

12 proceedings.)

13 Q Ms. Pincham, the membership you purchased was for

14 five years?

15 A Yes.

16 Q You joined in 1992?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Theoretically if you had paid the second bill you

19 would have been a member up to 1997; is that right, from

20 1992 to 1997, approximately?

21 A Based upon the saying that it was a split billing,

22 based on what I was told, I would have already have been

23 because I paid the full $297, sir.
24 Q So your membership would have run to approximately
25 1997; is that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4350
Pincham-cross/Geduldig


1 A Yes.

2 Q Let me show you what is mark ed as Gordon-H, page 11

3 of the magazine. There is a little squib and a picture of

4 Sarah O'Mera, O apostrophe M E R A. There is a person and

5 there is a little story about them, a paragraph. I would

6 ask you to read that to yourself, please.

7 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

8 proceedings.)

9 Q Is that a person you might be interested in brain

10 storming?

11 A Yes.

12 Q She is a member of Who's Who Worldwide registry

13 according to the magazine?

14 A I didn't see that, but I assume since the article is

15 there.

16 Five year member.

17 Q Am I right that sometimes when you brain storm, you

18 don't have to meet with people that are directly in your

19 line of work, but maybe in an associated line of work?

20 They do things similar to you, but not exactly what you

21 would do; is that right?

22 A True.

23 Q People, for instance, I think you said you deal with
24 children who are severely handicapped?
25 A No. Traumatized emotionally.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4351
Pincham-cross/Geduldig


1 Q Traumatized emotionally. But some of their problems,

2 not the same as a child who is blind, but a blind person

3 might have similar problems in adapting to their

4 surroundings or making friends, or whatever it might be,

5 but their problems might be similar to a traumatized young

6 person?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q And so, it would be beneficial to sometimes brain

9 storm with an individual who is not directly in your line

10 of work, but does something similar; is that right?

11 A Yes.

12 Q So, the list that Mr. Trabulus read to you before I

13 got up here, he mentioned some people that you said you

14 were not incline d to meet with, but those people I

15 conceive could tell you things about their line of work

16 that might be similar to your line of work; is that

17 correct?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Although you might not want to meet with people like

20 that, it might be beneficial if you did so?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q If I could, you read the Tribute magazine for

23 Ms. O'Mera.
24 What I would like you to read is read what is
25 marked as -- is this marked?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4352
Pincham-cross/Geduldig


1 I would like you to read from what is Gordon-G in

2 evidence.

3 I would like you to read the letter from

4 Ms. O'Mera, and read it slowly so the court reporter can

5 get it down.

6 A I am so pleased with the completed profile as it

7 appears in your premier issue of Tribute, winter of 1994.

8 I feel you and your staff do an outstanding job of

9 bringing information to the forefront. Thank you for

10 adding further exposure to my life's work. Only through

11 visibility can we build the Army which is necessary to

12 eradicate child abuse, Sarah O'Mera.

13 Q And Ms. O'Mera was the profile I asked you to read

14 just a little bit ago?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 MR. GEDULDIG: No further questions.

17 THE COURT: Anything else?

18

19 CROSS-EXAMINATION

20 BY MR. LEE:

21 Q Good morning.

22 My name is Winston Lee. How are you?

23 THE COURT: Just a second, and let the witness
24 get a glass of water, Mr. Lee.
25 Q You stated you had a prior meeting with Ms. Scott

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4353
Pincham-cross/Lee


1 before you came to testify here today?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q Would i t be fair to say that -- it was in your hotel

4 room; is that correct?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Would it be fair to say that she went over with you

7 the layout of the courtroom?

8 A No, sir.

9 Q Did she do that?

10 A No, sir.

11 Q Did she describe to you what the courtroom would look

12 like?

13 A No, sir.

14 Q Have you ever testified in a courtroom before, ma'am?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q You have.

17 Did she, did she describe to you that there would

18 be a group of people on one side of the courtroom, the

19 defense attorneys?

20 A No, sir.

21 Q Did she tell you that they were going to issue a lot

22 of questions?

23 A She said I would be asked a lot of questions, yes,
24 sir.
25 Q Did she say that to you?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4354
Pincham-cross/Lee


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q Did she say to you that there would be a group of

3 defense attorneys asking you questions?

4 A No, sir.

5 Q She told you she would be asking you questions?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q She described to you the questions she would be

8 asking you; is that correct?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Did she go over with you the type of questions she

11 would be asking you?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q Did she provide you with a sort of general outline of

14 what type of questions and what type of answers you would

15 give, an outline for you to keep in mind as you testify?

16 A No, sir.

17 Q Did she give you a sort of a guideline to guide you

18 in how to testify in court today?

19 A No, sir.

20 Q As far as general themes or general points that you

21 should hit in your testimony?

22 A No, sir.

23 Q Did she go over with you some prior ques tionnaires
24 that you had answered, and the answer you had written
25 prior to coming in today?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4355
Pincham-cross/Lee


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q She sat down with you, and you both sat down and

3 reviewed what you had in fact written in response to a

4 questionnaire back on June 29th of 1995; is that correct?

5 A No, sir.

6 MR. LEE: Could I have the 3500 exhibit?

7 Q Did she go over with you a questionnaire that you had

8 in fact sent back to the government back on June 29th,

9 1995?

10 A No. She told me that she might refer to that

11 questionnaire sometime today. But she did not go over it

12 with me.

13 Q During her conference with you yesterday, did she

14 have the questionnaire with her?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q I would just like to show you -- this is

17 Gov ernment's Exhibit 3500-WP-1.

18 (Handed to the witness.)

19 Q You can take it out of the plastic folder, ma'am.

20 Do you recognize that exhibit, ma'am?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And when was, prior to you looking at it right now,

23 when was the last time you saw that exhibit? Was it last
24 night?
25 A No, sir. I have had -- I maintain a copy of

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4356
Pincham-cross/Lee


1 everything that I send and mailed so when I received this

2 I maintained a copy it, sir.

3 Q When was the last time you reviewed that

4 questionnaire, the exhibit I have shown you, which I

5 identified as 3500-WP-1?

6 A I never reviewed it. I was asked some questions from

7 Mr. White, and she was -- he was saying on the telephone

8 you said so and so on the questionnaire, would you explain

9 to me what you meant. That was on the telephone before.

10 I have never actually gone over this with anyone.

11 Q Well, over the phone, when was that conversation with

12 Mr. White?

13 A Probably six months ago.

14 Q Six months from today?

15 A Somewhere last fall. They told me originally that

16 the trial was to start I believe in October and then told

17 me it was postponed until January. Because they tried me

18 to -- asked me to arrange my affairs so I could be here.

19 Q Now, when Mr. White went over the questionnaire with

20 you, did he make a point of going over the entire

21 questionnaire from beginning to end, or did he just kind

22 of like take certain portions out of it and ask you about

23 specific portions of it?
24 A Asked me to explain what I meant by certain answers
25 of it. He didn't ask me to go over question by question.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM O FFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4357
Pincham-cross/Lee


1 Q It wasn't a complete review of your questionnaire to

2 the government?

3 A That's right.

4 Q It was certain portions of it?

5 A I assume it was certain questions I had not fully

6 explained myself on.

7 MR. LEE: I would ask that be stricken from the

8 record which is unresponsive.

9 THE COURT: Can I have the question and answer,

10 please.

11 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the

12 requested material.)

13 THE COURT: Motion granted. Strike the answer as

14 not being responsive. You may inquire.

15 Q Ms. Pincham, if you can answer yes or no, I will ask

16 you to do that.

17 My question was, when Mr. White was asking you

18 questions, am I correct that it was not a complete review

19 of the questionnaire, but only certain portions he picked

20 out and asked you a bout; am I correct? Yes or no?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Now, you recall testifying, and I want to bring you

23 back to the time you had a certain conversation with
24 someone from the organization, and I believe it was in
25 late '92; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4358
Pincham-cross/Lee


1 A From Who's Who, yes, sir.

2 Q I want you to think back to that point in time.

3 You had expectations or had envisioned that you

4 would possibly be able to do some brain storming as a

5 result of your membership; is that correct?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q How did you expect the exchange of ideas between you

8 and other members, the brain storming, thinking back to

9 late '92, when you were having this conversation, what was

10 your expectation on how you would accomplish this brain

11 storming?

12 A Two ways.

13 One, she said, the lady I was talking to, said

14 that all the other members would be notified by mail of me

15 and my profile, and so I expected I might be able to do

16 some brain storming when other members heard about my

17 profile. And then at the work shops and seminars.

18 Q Now, other than -- what -- now, were you expecting to

19 have to on your own initiative, reach out and contact

20 people?

21 A No, sir.

22 Q You were not expecting that would be one of the ways

23 in which you would accomplish brain storming or
24 networking? Am I correct in stating that?
25 A If I had received their profiles, yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4359
Pincham-cross/Lee


1 Q My question to you is: Were you expecting yourself

2 to actually have to put some work into this, and to try to

3 reach out and contact other members? Were you expecting

4 to have to do that in order to obtain some of the benefits

5 from your membership?

6 A Sir, I can't answer that yes or no, because --

7 Q I will just ask you this question.

8 Thinking back, can you recall as to whether or

9 not you would have to make an effort to reach out by mail,

10 by any sort of initiative on your part, to reach out to

11 other members, would you expect to do that, you would have

12 to do that? Yes or no?

13 A I can't answer that yes or no, sir.

14 Q Can you recall --

15 THE COURT: I was just going to tell you that you

16 didn't have to answer any question yes or no. Please try

17 to be responsive by answering yes or no, if you can. If

18 you can't, just say as you just did, I can't answer that

19 question yes or no. So, you were one step ahead of me.

20 All right.

21 Q Ms. Pincham, is the reason yo u can't provide an

22 answer to the jury is because you can't recall what you

23 were thinking back in '92?
24 A No, sir. It was simply once I received the directory
25 and knew who to call and write to, once I went to the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4360
Pincham-cross/Lee


1 seminars and work shops and met some of the people to know

2 who to contact, of course I would have contacted them to

3 contact and network with them. I didn't receive that,

4 sir.

5 Q So, your testimony is that if you had decided to go

6 ahead and purchase the registry, that you would have, as

7 far as you could tell, you would have gone ahead and used

8 it to try to make efforts to contact people, yes or no?

9 You would have done that?

10 A I am I received it, yes, sir.

11 Q You state there was some misunderstanding.

12 Your understa nding is you paid the full price; is

13 that correct?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q Regardless of what was the cause of the

16 understanding, I want you to suppose for a moment -- just

17 suppose you received a second bill, and for whatever

18 reason, that perhaps there was not ever a

19 misunderstanding, or you just went ahead and decided to

20 purchase the registry for an additional $97, plus tax,

21 that you would have then used the registry and tried to

22 get from it what you had expected from the very beginning;

23 is that correct?
24 A I am sorry, sir. By that time I would not have put
25 good money after bad. I had no way of knowing I would

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4361
Pincham-cross/Lee


1 receive a registry regardless of how much I paid.

2 Q Yes, your state of mind was that you had decided you

3 would no t purchase; am I right?

4 A I was not going to pay any more money.

5 Q For the registry.

6 What I am saying is if the registry had been

7 available to you and upon review if you had discovered

8 that there were more people with similar interests to you,

9 is there a possibility that you might have utilized it to

10 your benefit?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q That's a fair statement, isn't that correct?

13 A Yes.

14 Q You stated an additional thing you were expecting was

15 called work shops; isn't that correct?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q You said you were told by the company, Who's Who,

18 that conferences -- work shops, if you will, would be

19 held; is that correct?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q Now, did this have a lot to do with your decision to

22 purchase a membership?

23 A Not to the extent of being nominated by someone who
24 knew me and held me in the highest esteem, sir.
25 Q You stated that was one of the reasons?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4362
Pincham-cross/Lee


1 A Yes.

2 Q And there were other reasons?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And my question -- of course, you just told us that,

5 am I correct, that one of the reasons was also the ability

6 to attend seminars or conferences?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q My question to you is: And I want you to be as

9 accurate as possible for the jury, the seminars and the

10 work shops, did that affect your decision a lot to

11 purchase a membership?

12 A Yes, less than did the other, but it did have an

13 effect on it.

14 Q Did it have a lot to do with your decision, yes or

15 no?

16 A Sir, it depends on what you mean by a lot. On a

17 scale of one to ten, being nominated by someone who cared

18 t hat much about me was probably a good six, and then maybe

19 the seminars and work shops would have been a three.

20 Q Well, let me ask you, in your words would you say it

21 had very little to do -- well, withdrawn -- withdrawn.

22 I have no further questions.

23 THE COURT: Any other questions?
24 MS. SCOTT: I have redirect, your Honor.
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4363
Pincham-redirect/White


1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. WHITE:

3 Q Ms. Pincham, do you remember being asked questions on

4 cross-examination about your memory of your first contact

5 with the company?

6 A Yes, ma'am.

7 Q Do you remember testifying that you remember first

8 being contacted by letter?

9 A Yes, ma'am.

10 Q Do you remember Mr. Trabulus asking you about your

11 answer on the questionnaire where you said that your first

12 contact was by telephone?

13 A Yes, ma'am.

14 Q Can you tell us when approximately you filled that

15 questionnaire out?

16 A It was, I think in the summer a year and a half ago,

17 maybe, in '95. I don't remember for sure.

18 Q Can you tell us why your answers to those

19 questions -- withdrawn.

20 Can you tell us why you gave a different answer

21 on the questionnaire than you gave today in the courtroom?

22 A When I sat down -- they happened so close together

23 that my memory at that time, I simply wrote down telephone
24 and then by letter. And then when I went back and
25 reviewed my own copies of the materials, I realized that I

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4364
Pincham-redirect/White


1 had sent the card in first.

2 Q When you say sent the card in first, what do you

3 mean?

4 A Before I received the telephone called.

5 Q Do you remember answering questions what you did with

6 your plaque?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Can you tell us when you hung the plaque on the wall?

9 A As soon as I received it.

10 Q You mentioned also on cross-examination that the

11 plaque is no longer hanging on the wall?

12 A No. By the time that I got the second bill I was

13 beginning to have very, very sad upset feelings, and I

14 took it off the wall of my office, and I hung it on a

15 little small wall between the bathroom and the bedroom.

16 And then when I finally realized that there was none of it

17 going to happen, I took it down completely.

18 Q When did you realize, as you said, that none of it

19 was going to happen?

20 A After the '93-'94 directory had not come to me.

21 There was already a year, and I received no notice of

22 seminars, and received nothing but the plaque, and then

23 when I received no registry, I knew.
24 Q Do you remember Mr. Trabulus reading some names to
25 you of people whom he suggested you might be interested in

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4365
Pincham-redirect/White


1 talking with?

2 A Yes, sir -- yes, ma'am.

3 Q Do you remember him asking you if you might be

4 interested in speaking with some of those people?

5 A Yes, ma'am.

6 Q At the time you made this purchase did you have any

7 idea that the company used mailing lists to obtain new

8 members?

9 A Oh, no.

10 Q Is that something you would have wanted to know

11 before making a purchase?

12 MR. GEDULDIG: Objection, Judge. Rehashing the

13 direct.

14 THE COURT: Overruled.

15 A I would certainly have wanted to know. I would not

16 have purc hased a membership had I known my name was taken

17 from a mailing list.

18 Q Now, these names that Mr. Trabulus read to you as

19 being people from Who's Who Worldwide, members of Who's

20 Who Worldwide, did you ever know about any of those people

21 before today?

22 A No, ma'am.

23 Q Had you ever seen a directory containing those names
24 before today?
25 A No, ma'am.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4366
Pincham-redirect/White


1 Q Now, do you remember Mr. Geduldig asking you

2 questions about the first bill sent to you, the first

3 invoice?

4 A Yes, ma'am.

5 Q Do you remember him asking you about the warning

6 appearing in blue on that document, warning about possible

7 second payment?

8 A Yes, ma'am.

9 Q Do you remember Mr. Geduldig asking you about whether

10 you made any kind of complaint to the company other than

11 the letter you told us you wrote?

12 A I remember him asking.

13 Q Do you remember him saying you didn't complain other

14 than the one letter you wrote?

15 A I remember.

16 Q I am sorry?

17 A I said I remember.

18 Q Can you tell us, why you never complained after

19 writing that second letter?

20 MR. LEE: Objection, your Honor.

21 THE COURT: Overruled.

22 A Part of the reason is because of all the children we

23 were working with, the amount of time that would have been
24 invested in something like that. Part of it is because I
25 had already lost the money. And I just am not that kind

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4367
Pincham-redirect/White


1 of a person. Part of it is because no one likes to admit

2 that they had been -- they lost money and it hadn't gone

3 for a good cause.

4 MS. SCOTT: May I have a moment, your Honor?

5 THE COURT: Yes.

6 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

7 proceedings.)

8 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, Ms. Pincham. I have no

9 further questions.

10 THE COURT: Anyone else?

11 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.

12

13 RECROSS-EXAMINATION

14 BY MR. TRABULUS:

15 Q Ms. Pincham, I think I heard you say that after about

16 a year you came to the realization that certain things

17 were not going to happen, and you said that there were no

18 seminars and no magazine.

19 In your initial conversation with the woman who

20 spoke to you over the telephone, were you told that there

21 was going to be a magazine?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q And you were told that in 1992?
24 A I was told that in 1992, and that's what really
25 surprised me when I just read this, premier issue, winter

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4368
Pincham-recross/Trabulus


1 of '94.

2 Q In the questionnaire that you filled out for the

3 postal inspectors, was there any mention by you of a

4 magazine?

5 A Not to my recollection.

6 Q You mentioned you didn't get the directory; is that

7 correct?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And you didn't mention you didn't get a magazine,

10 right?

11 A I don't remember, sir.

12 Q If I were to tell you that the magazine hadn't even

13 been conceived of as of the fall of 1992, would that

14 suggest to you that it is possible that it was something

15 that came into your memory, perhaps a mistake, and more

16 recently?

17 A No, sir.

18 Q And at the time you filled out the questionnaire, you

19 put in that you had received a telephone call originally

20 a nd then received something by mail; is that correct?

21 A Yes.

22 Q That was your recollection by the -- at the time; is

23 that correct?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Those -- that recollection was mistaken?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4369
Pincham-recross/Trabulus


1 A That happens in --

2 Q Is it difficult to answer as to whether it was

3 mistaken?

4 A No, sir.

5 Q Was it mistaken at the time?

6 A It was a mistake I wrote down at the time of the

7 original questionnaire.

8 Q Was your recollection mistaken -- withdrawn.

9 When you wrote it down on the questionnaire, you

10 were honestly writing down what was a recollection you had

11 in your head at that time; is that correct?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And that recollection was mistaken at that time?

14 A Yes. 11 days mistake.

15 Q I beg yo ur pardon?

16 A Eleven days mistake.

17 Q It was a mistake in reference to the order in which

18 things had happened; is that right?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Now, I take it you never asked for a refund; is that

21 correct?

22 A No, sir.

23 Q It is not correct?
24 A It is correct. I did not ask for a refund.
25 Q And I think you also indicated that the questionnaire

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4370
Pincham-recross/Trabulus


1 was filled out maybe a year and a half ago in one of your

2 answers?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q You have it in front of you there?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q If it was filled out in June of 1995?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q So it is more than two and a half years ago; is that

9 right?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q Now, let's go through what you told Mr. Geduldig, and

12 you n ow remember you were told in that initial telephone

13 conversation.

14 You were told the total cost would be $290; is

15 that correct?

16 A $297.

17 Q I am sorry, 297?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q You were told there is no cost for being included in

20 the registry; is that correct?

21 A I would receive a free copy of the registry.

22 Q You mentioned that even the card said there was no

23 cost for inclusion of the registry; is that correct?
24 A It is true.
25 Q You have the card there?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4371
Pincham-recross/Trabulus


1 A No, sir.

2 Q And no cost for inclusion doesn't mean you wouldn't

3 get a copy, but that your name would be listed without any

4 payment?

5 A Yes, sir. But she told me I would get a free

6 directory.

7 Q Did I ask you that?

8 A I believe you implied that, sir.

9 MS. SCOTT: Objection.

10 THE COURT: The question, did I ask you that.

11 That objection is sustained. If you wish to move to

12 strike it, move to strike it. Please do not argue with

13 the witness.

14 Q Now, you were told you would get for your $297, the

15 following things: A trip back and forth to New York?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q Is that correct?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q Before that time, had you ever flown to New York or

20 to the east coast before?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q And how much did that cost?

23 A With the courtesy of the military, my husband spent
24 23 years in the Army, and we flew back and forth around
25 the world.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4372
Pincham-recross/Trabulus


1 Q Are you familiar generally with what the cost of

2 aviation wou ld be for a round trip cost from the eastcoast

3 to Washington?

4 A I would assume around $400.

5 Q You were also going to get a dinner to New York once

6 you were here; is that correct?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q You were going to stay in a hotel?

9 A I would assume.

10 Q Certainly you weren't going to be going back the same

11 day you flew; is that correct?

12 A No.

13 Q And were you told that your expenses would be all

14 paid?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q And that would be include the hotel?

17 A I would assume so.

18 Q And you were told you would be getting a book; is

19 that correct?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q And the book was going to be -- was the book

22 described to you in terms of how it would look?

23 A The only thing that was described to me is that it
24 would be sectioned off into like -- which is why I was
25 glanc ing at it to see if it really was, sir, that it would

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4373
Pincham-recross/Trabulus


1 be of like fields and professions so it would be easy to

2 find.

3 Q Were you told the book was going to be a thick book,

4 a lot of names?

5 A I don't remember being told it was going to be a

6 thick book.

7 Q Were you given to understand that there were

8 thousands of people in Who's Who Worldwide?

9 A No. I was given to understand that there are lots of

10 people.

11 Q Did you understand that -- did you expect the book

12 you would be getting would be a substantial thick book?

13 A I would say I was probably expecting something around

14 an inch thick.

15 Q You also understood you would be receiving a plaque;

16 is that correct?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Was the plaque described to you in its appearance?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Was the size of it told to you?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q And you were going to be getting for the $290, a

23 round trip flight to New York worth about $400, dinner, a
24 hotel room, a book and a plaque, that's what you
25 understood? I want to summarize; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4374
Pincham-recross/Trabulus


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And you understood that Who's Who Worldwide was a

3 business, did you not?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q You didn't believe that it was a not for profit

6 organization, did you?

7 A I didn't think.

8 Q No one told you that, did they?

9 A No.

10 Q Did you ask any questions of the person you spoke to

11 about how they would be able to afford to give you any of

12 these things, all these things at that point in t ime?

13 A No, sir.

14 Q Is it possible the reason you didn't ask any

15 questions is because the person didn't really say all

16 those things at that point in time, and your memory today

17 as to everything told to you in that conversation is

18 somehow mistaken?

19 A No, sir.

20 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions.

21 MR. GEDULDIG: Just one or two.

22

23 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
24 BY MR. GEDULDIG:
25 Q Ms. Pincham, Ms. Scott asked you some questions just

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4375
Pincham-recross/Trabulus


1 a bit ago about the reasons that you did not complain

2 after you had gotten the second bill; do you remember

3 that?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q I think the explanation you gave is it would take too

6 much time from the children and the work you were doing?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q And you are a person who doesn't like to admit that

9 you had been had; is that right?

10 A That's true.

11 Q Now, am I correct in saying that you never wrote a

12 letter to the better business bureau in Yelm, or wherever

13 the next biggest city might be in Washington where you

14 lived?

15 A No, I didn't.

16 Q You did not call up on the telephone the local

17 prosecutor, the district attorney in Yelm or the next

18 biggest city to tell them that you had been had?

19 A No, I didn't.

20 Q A telephone call would not have taken a whole lot of

21 time; isn't that fair to say?

22 A That's probably true.

23 Q And a letter, you could have sat down and written out
24 has letter in an hour or less; is that fair to say?
25 A It is not what happens right then --

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4376
Pincham -recross/Trabulus


1 Q My question is: Could you have written a letter in

2 an hour or less explaining how you felt you had been

3 taken?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q And now you are here in New York; is that right?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q You came out yesterday?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q You may not get back until tomorrow?

10 A That's true.

11 Q A that's three days?

12 A Yes.

13 Q You are going to be away from the children?

14 A That's why I didn't write the original letter.

15 Q I understand that, but you are here today and you

16 will be away from the children; is that right?

17 A Yes.

18 Q You are going to be away for three days from the work

19 you do; is that right?

20 A That's true.

21 Q So, you are spending a whole lot more time today

22 testifying in this court than you ever could have spent in

23 calling up the bett er business bureau or the local
24 district attorney to tell them what had happened to you;
25 is that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4377
Pincham-recross/Trabulus


1 A No. Because it could have lead to the same amount of

2 time, sir.

3 Q Is your trip here today a freebie, are you paying a

4 dime from Yelm, Washington to New York?

5 A They wanted to reimburse me --

6 Q Are you paying a dime for the trip you took from

7 Yelm, Washington to New York?

8 MS. SCOTT: Objection.

9 THE COURT: Sustained as to form.

10 Q Are you paying any money at all to travel to this

11 courtroom?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q How much did you pay?

14 A So far $76 for the taxi fare. I paid for all my

15 meals. The only thing I didn't pay for is my hotel

16 room --

17 Q Is your husband here with you?

1 8 A No, he is home with the children.

19 Q You got a free trip to New York paid for by the

20 government; is that right?

21 A It should have been paid by Worldwide. I am sorry.

22 Q But it is paid by the government?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And your hotel room is being made by the government?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4378
Pincham-recross/Trabulus


1 Q And this is the first time that you ever testified or

2 gave any explanation to what happened in a court or to

3 prosecutors regarding what happened some five or six years

4 ago?

5 A That's true.

6 MR. GEDULDIG: I have no further questions.

7 MS. SCOTT: Nothing further, your Honor.

8 THE COURT: All right.

9 You may step down.

10 (Whereupon, at this time the witness left the

11 witness stand.)

12 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we will take a

13 ten-minute recess.

14 We are going to take a later lunch today. I have

15 a meeting here, a judge's meeting. So we are going to

16 take lunch from 1:00 to 2:15 p.m.

17 Please do not discuss the case and keep an open

18 mind. And please recess yourselves.

19 (Whereupon, at this time the jury left the

20 courtroom.)

21

22 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)

23
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4379

1 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the

2 courtroom.)

3 THE COURT: You may proceed.

4 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the government calls

5 Steven Watstein.

6 THE CLERK: Please stand and raise your right

7 hand.

8

9 S T E V E N W A T S T E I N ,

10 called as a witness, having been first

11 duly sworn, was examined and tes tified

12 as follows:

13

14 THE CLERK: Please state your name and spell your

15 last name slowly for the record.

16 THE WITNESS: Steven Watstein, W A T S T E I N.

17 THE COURT: How do you spell Steven?

18 THE WITNESS: S T E V E N.

19 THE COURT: Have a seat, please.

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

21 THE COURT: You may proceed.

22 MR. WHITE: Thank you, your Honor.

23
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4380
Watstein-direct/White


1 DIRECT EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. WHITE:

3 Q Mr. Watstein, can you tell us how old you are?

4 A 56.

5 Q Tell us where you live, please?

6 A In Weston, Florida, W E S T O N.

7 Q And what do you do for a living?

8 A I am the president of Seminar Industries of America.

9 Q What sort of business is that?

10 A I do business con sulting and run seminars for

11 companies.

12 Q Can you tell us what sort of seminars you run for

13 companies?

14 A Seminars on marketing strategies, stategic marketing

15 planning and professional selling.

16 Q And can you tell us who are some of your clients?

17 A I advise the --

18 THE COURT: One minute. First of all, would you

19 please slow down, Mr. Watstein. Also, pull the microphone

20 closer to you.

21 What is the answer to the question?

22 THE WITNESS: I advise the asset base division of

23 Core, C O R E, State Bank; a company called Just Great
24 Coffee, and a company called Larry Tucker, Inc.
25 Q Now, do you use any other names besides Steven

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4381
Watstein-direct/White


1 Watstein?

2 A Yes, sir, Steven West, W E S T.

3 Q And why do you use that nam e?

4 A I have used that name for the last 35 years in the

5 business world.

6 Q Now, have you ever heard of a business named Who's

7 Who in U.S. Executives?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Who is the CEO, chief executive in Who's Who in U.S.

10 Executives?

11 A I was.

12 Q Tell us when it was you were the chief executive of

13 that company?

14 A From 1988 to 1991.

15 Q Now, was your wife also involved in this business?

16 A She was titled president, but not actively involved

17 in the business.

18 Q Now, where was this business located?

19 A The business was located in Great Neck, New York.

20 Q Can you describe for us in general terms what type of

21 business Who's Who in Executives was?

22 A It was a company publishing Who's Who directories and

23 had a Who's Who membership program and marketed books and
24 plaques to its members.

25 Q How many Who's Who type directories did your company

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4382
Watstein-direct/White


1 publish?

2 A I believe it was five or six.

3 Q Now, did you participate in a scheme to defraud the

4 customers of your company?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Can you describe how your company, Who's Who in

7 Executives, operate?

8 A We secured mailing lists of individuals and mailed

9 letters to them indicating they were nominated for

10 inclusion in our Who's Who directory. When those

11 nomination ballots were received, they were allocated to

12 salespeople who made phone calls to the individuals.

13 These salespeople would interview the individuals on the

14 phone and then would attempt to sell them various products

15 and services.

16 Q Now, when your company told customers they had been

17 nomina ted was that true?

18 A No, sir.

19 Q And in truth where did you obtain the names from?

20 A Mailing lists.

21 Q What sort of mailing lists did you use?

22 A For example, Dun & Bradstreet executive of mailing

23 lists. There was a directory called Carroll,
24 C A R R O L L, Directory in Law Enforcement. Forbes
25 Magazine or Fortune Magazine, various magazines

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4383
Watstein-direct/White


1 subscriptions, the American Association of Female

2 Executives comes to mind.

3 Q Now, did you make any misleading statements to

4 customers regarding how they had been selected or how they

5 would be evaluated by your company?

6 MR. SCHOER: Objection.

7 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.

8 THE COURT: What grounds?

9 MR. TRABULUS: Form.

10 THE COURT: Overruled.

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q Tell us what misleading statements you made?

13 A Are you referring to mailings or referring to the

14 sales presentations or both, sir?

15 Q Both.

16 A As it related to the mailings we indicated that

17 people were confidentially nominated for inclusion into

18 Who's Who, when in fact it was not the case. Their names

19 were secured from mailing lists. And on the mailing

20 pieces that we sent out, we indicated there was an

21 advisory committee, when in fact there was no such

22 advisory committee.

23 In the actual sales presentations we indicated we
24 were extremely selective insofar as the inclusion of
25 individuals, when in fact we were not extremely

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1 selective.

2 The salespeople indicated that it was a

3 prestigious or ganization, when in fact in truth it was

4 not. And those are some examples relevant to your

5 question, sir.

6 Q Now, were the letters sent by your company -- what

7 percentage of customers who wanted to be included in your

8 company's directories were included?

9 A I suspect the answer is 99 percent.

10 Q Were the letters sent by your company to potential

11 customers signed by anyone?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q By whom were they signed?

14 A They were signed by individuals who in fact did not

15 exist, who were being used by code names and with the

16 viewpoint toward sounding prestigious.

17 Q Can you give us the examples of some of the names you

18 used?

19 A Yes, sir. Thornton Rockefeller and Harlan Carnegie.

20 Q Did you use those names in order to deceive potential

21 customers?

22 A Partially, sir.

23 Q You said before your compan y had a telemarketing
24 sales staff?
25 A Yes.

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1 Q Can you tell us approximately how many people worked

2 in your company?

3 A At its peak there were 70 salespeople. On average

4 there was 30 or 40.

5 Q And what was the job title that you gave to the

6 telemarketers to your company?

7 A Associate member or associate director of the

8 membership committee.

9 Q And why did you give them that name?

10 A I felt it would sound more prestigious.

11 Q Did you do that to deceive potential customers?

12 A Partially, yes.

13 MR. NELSON: Objection.

14 THE COURT: What ground?

15 MR. NELSON: The form of the question, your

16 Honor.

17 THE COURT: Yes. Sustained as to form.

18 MR. NELSON: Ask the answer be stricken.

19 TH E COURT: Strike it out the answer.

20 Q Now, did the sales persons interview potential

21 customers on the telephone?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q And what were the customers told regarding why they
24 were to be interviewed?
25 A That the interview was required to determine if they

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1 were properly qualified to be included in our Who's Who

2 directory of executive program.

3 Q Was it untrue?

4 A No.

5 Q In what way was it untrue?

6 A In fact, we accepted 99 percent of the people, the

7 interview was more calculated to achieve sales objectives

8 than to actually qualify individuals.

9 Q What sales objectives are you referring to?

10 A The attempt was for us to sell books, plaques and

11 other membership services and generate revenue.

12 Q Did y ou make any false statements regarding the

13 reputation of your company?

14 A I believe we overstated the prestige of our company

15 in terms of the sales presentation.

16 Q Did you make any misleading statements regarding the

17 inclusion of famous people to your company?

18 A We had sent --

19 MR. NEVILLE: Objection.

20 THE COURT: What ground?

21 MR. NEVILLE: We. Let him speak for himself,

22 your Honor.

23 THE COURT: Overruled.
24 You may proceed.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

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1 We had sent out -- would you repeat the question,

2 please?

3 Q Did you make any misleading statements regarding the

4 involvement of famous people with your company?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 We had sent out memberships pre qualified to

7 famous peop le such as Lee Iacoca and Donald Trump, when in

8 fact they did not go through the entire interview people

9 and were just put in the book to create a higher level of

10 prestige.

11 Q Did you make any misleading statements regarding

12 where your directories were available?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q What did you say?

15 A We had indicated that directories were available in

16 many libraries, when in fact they were only involved in a

17 handful of libraries only and we sent those directories to

18 the libraries without payment itself, and there were

19 probably no more than five or ten libraries involved.

20 Q Why did you send those directories to those

21 libraries?

22 A I had felt it would create a higher level of prestige

23 to people to indicate that the books were in the library
24 of Congress, Wharton's Library, Harvard Library, etcetera.
25 Q Now, d id your company ever solicit nominations from

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1 its existing members?

2 A For a brief period of time.

3 Q And why was that done?

4 A It was our intention to create additional leads to

5 become members and thus reduce the cost in advertising and

6 lead creation.

7 Q Explain what you mean by that?

8 A For a brief period of time we asked the sales force

9 to ask each member for nominations and recommendations for

10 those individuals who might be included in our Who's Who

11 directory. We incented the sales force by paying them a

12 dollar a piece for such nominations. It was the intention

13 of taking those nominations and to call those individuals

14 on the phone indicating they were in fact nominated by

15 another member. We discontinued the practice as it was

16 counterproductive.

17 Q Now, have you ever heard of Marquis Who's Who?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q Did you make any misleading statements to your

20 customers regarding Marquis Who's Who publications?

21 A I don't think I can answer that question with a yes

22 or no, Mr. White.

23 Q Can you explain what, if any, statements you made
24 with regard to Marquis Who's Who?
25 A By using the name "Who's Who" we attempted to trade

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1 on a name that had some value in --

2 MR. SCHOER: Objection.

3 THE COURT: Overruled.

4 A By using the name "Who's Who" we attempted to trade

5 on a name that I felt had prestige in the minds of

6 individuals who were unfamiliar that there were more than

7 one Who's Who. However our sales force were instructed

8 should anyone say, are you the same as Marquis Who's Who,

9 or are you Marquis Who's Who, we would say no, we are not,

10 we are either better, bigger or more prestigious, and no

11 one would have intentionally misled people as it relates

12 to Marquis Who's Who.

13 Q Now, can you tell us approximately what were the

14 total sales of your company?

15 A Approximately over its four-year period,

16 approximately 14 million dollars.

17 Q Now, when customer's purchased directories or other

18 items from your companies did your company deliver them?

19 A Substantially, yes.

20 Q Explain what you mean?

21 A In our initial publication in 1988 through 1989, we

22 had contracted the fulfillment function out to another

23 company instead of doing it ourselves. And during that
24 period substantially everything we did was delivered on
25 time, on a timely basis.



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1 In 1989 we brought that function in-house in the

2 company and experienced a computer failure which caused a

3 delay and a loss of data. Over time we were able to

4 submit the greater bulk of all bookings out, albeit on a

5 delinquent basis.

6 Q During the time period when you were -- when you had

7 lost data, did you or the company make any misleading

8 statements to customers about delivery of their product?

9 A I think we probably misstated the time in which it

10 would take us to solve the problem. It also came to my

11 attention that some of the employees stated that there was

12 a strike at the company, or the company was on vacation,

13 when in fact it was not a truthful statement, those were

14 not truthful statements.

15 Q Did your company receive requests for ref unds from

16 customers?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Now, did you make any misleading statements to

19 customers who asked for refunds?

20 A Yes, I believe we did, sir.

21 Q What did you say?

22 A Well, in the initial stages when we were not

23 experiencing financial difficulty, we followed a fairly
24 standard but aggressive program to try to delay or defer
25 refunds by just using salesmanship. As we experienced a

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1 computer problem and began to have financial difficulties

2 there were a number of misrepresentations in my judgment,

3 including the fact that the individual's cover was already

4 printed with their name on it, the fact that their plate

5 or plaque was already produced, and other such

6 misrepresentations.

7 Q The misrepresentations abou t the book, cover and

8 plaque, how was it used to not give a refund?

9 A By indicating the product was in fact partially

10 fulfilled already, which in fact was not the case.

11 Q Did there come a time that postal inspectors executed

12 a search warrant at your office and home?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q Can you tell us approximately when that was?

15 A The first search warrant was in June of 1990, and

16 that was a search of the premises in Great Neck, New

17 York. The second search warrants were in July of 1991,

18 which was for our premises in Queens, New York. We had

19 moved to Queens, New York, and my home that was located in

20 the North Shore Towers.

21 The third report was in August of 1991, at a home

22 I was building in Mill Neck, M I L L N E C K, New York.

23 Q Did there come a time that you were arrested?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q When were you arre sted?

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1 A May of 1992.

2 Q And what were you arrested for?

3 A Mail fraud.

4 Q Was your wife arrested?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q And when was that?

7 A In May of 1992.

8 Q Were any of your employees arrested?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q How many of them?

11 A Approximately 25.

12 Q Do you know a man named Martin Gross?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q Who is Martin Gross?

15 A An employee of my company.

16 Q Was Mr. Gross arrested at that time?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Now, did you plead guilty to any crimes?

19 A Yes.

20 Q When did you plead guilty?

21 A In March of 1993.

22 Q Tell us how many charges you pled guilty to?

23 A Six.
24 Q What did you plead guilty to?
25 A I pled guilty to mail fraud, mail fr aud conspiracy,

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1 income tax evasion and also the filing of false receipts

2 on a claim on a limousine which was titled to my wife, as

3 well as making improper permit for a not for profit

4 company called American Sales and Marketing Institute.

5 Q Taking it one by one, in connection with your guilty

6 plea to mail fraud, tell us what you did that was

7 fraudulent?

8 A We indicated in our mailing campaigns that people

9 were nominated --

10 MR. SCHOER: Objection.

11 THE COURT: Sustained.

12 Members of the jury, I am now instructing you

13 that the fact that this witness pleaded guilty to mail

14 fraud has no bearing on the facts in this case, or any of

15 the charges against the defendants in this case. This is

16 a personal decision that this witness came to on his own.

17 And you cannot in any way infer because he pled guilty to

18 mail fraud that that is in any way carrying over to any of

19 the defendants in this case, even if it is similar acts.

20 Especially if it is similar acts can you not infer

21 anything as a result of that. As I said, that was a

22 personal decision that this defendant came to. It has no

23 bearing on the facts in this case, except as to his
24 credibility. That you can take the conviction, which is a
25 plea, into account, as far as his credibility is

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1 concerned.

2 Q Now, can you describe to us what it is you did that

3 resulted in your guilty plea to tax evasion?

4 A I had placed assets in my wife's name in order to

5 avoid payments to the Internal Revenue Service. I owed

6 m oney to the Internal Revenue Service and in order to

7 avoid the collection of that obligation, I placed assets

8 in my wife's name.

9 Q In connection with that effort did you create or

10 submit any false documents?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q What documents did you create or submit?

13 A I created documents, backdated my wife's resignation

14 from that company when in fact there was no such

15 resignation.

16 Q You said you also pled guilty to something about

17 false receipts?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Tell us what that was about?

20 A There was a break in in a limousine owned by me and

21 titled to my wife. And in the filing of the insurance

22 claim I created receipts that did not exist, and to a

23 greater extent duplicated receipts without indicating that
24 they were in fact duplicate receipts.
25 Q And to whom were these documents submitted?



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1 A To an insurance company who carried the policy.

2 Q Was that in support of a claim you were making under

3 the policy?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q And the final charge you pled guilty to, can you tell

6 us what that involved?

7 A I had caused to be incorporated a company called

8 American Sales and Marketing Institute. And we had

9 applied for a not for profit permit which would reduce the

10 cost of the mailing. Although we did initially

11 incorporate that company, we didn't complete the balance

12 of the documentation. And it was determined that in fact

13 it was not a not for profit company.

14 Q And did you make any false statements to the Postal

15 Service in connection with that?

16 A The application required us to indicate that American

17 Sales and Marketing Institute, was a not for profit

18 company, when in fact it was not fully qualified as a not

19 for profit company.

20 Q Now, the six charges or six crimes you described, did

21 you commit those crimes that you pled guilty to?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q Now, did your wife also plead guilty?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q What did she plead guilty to?

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1 MR. SCHOER: Objection.

2 THE COURT: Sustained.

3 Q Now, at the time you pleaded guilty, did you have an

4 estimate as to what the sentence you faced was?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q What was that?

7 A 72 to 87 months.

8 Q At the time you pleaded guilty, did you enter into an

9 agreement with the government?

10 A I entered the guilty plea prior -- agreement prior to

11 my guilty plea, sir.

12 Q What did you agree to do under that agreement?

13 A I agreed to cooperate with the U.S. Government in the

14 investigation of any crimes known to me, or any crimes

15 that the government might ask me to assist them with.

16 Q What is your understanding of what the government

17 agreed to do under this agreement?

18 A The government agreed that if I completed my

19 responsibilities appropriately they would submit a letter

20 to Judge Mishler, which I believe is called a 5K letter,

21 indicating that based on my cooperation he would have the

22 option of a downward departure in my sentencing.

23 Q Can you explain to what your understanding of a
24 downward departure was.
25 A That in fact, instead of facing a longer period of

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1 jail time, I could face lesser jail time or possibly no

2 jail time.

3 Q At the time of your guilty plea did the government

4 make any promise to you as to what sentence you would

5 receive?

6 A No, sir.

7 Q Did you and your wife agree to do anything else in

8 connection with your guilty plea?

9 MR. SCHOER: Objection.

10 THE COURT: What grounds?

11 MR. SCHOER: He never said that his wife entered

12 into any sort of cooperation agreement.

13 THE COURT: Sustained.

14 Q Did you or your family do anything else in connection

15 with your guilty plea?

16 A You are referring to the cooperation agreement?

17 Q No.

18 Did you or anyone in your family forfeit any

19 property?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q Tell us what property you forfeited?

22 A As part of the agreement with the government, we

23 forfeited a piece of land in Mill Neck, New York, a bank
24 acco unt in my son's name, and the proceeds from an
25 insurance claim which approximated slightly less than one

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1 million dollars.

2 Q The total of those things?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q Now, did you subsequently cooperate with the

5 government?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q Tell us in summary what you did?

8 A Over a period of three years I was involved in

9 numerous matters assisting the U.S. Government, which

10 resulted in a number of investigations, a number of --

11 MR. SCHOER: Objection.

12 THE COURT: Overruled.

13 A -- a number of investigations, a number of

14 indictments, a number of arrests, a number of convictions,

15 and a number of parties being exonerated as there was not

16 sufficient evidence to pursue the evidence against them.

17 MR. SCHO ER: Objection.

18 THE COURT: Overruled.

19 Q Have you already been sentenced?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q Tell us when you were sentenced?

22 A In August of 1995.

23 Q At your sentencing did the government advise the
24 judge of your cooperation?
25 A Yes, sir.

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1 Q Tell us what sentence you received?

2 A The sentence I received was six months of house

3 arrest, probation for three years, and a fine of $50,000

4 that was payable over 20 months.

5 Q Were you ordered to make restitution to the victims

6 of your crimes?

7 A No, sir.

8 Q Did you make any efforts to make restitution to the

9 victims of your crimes?

10 A Yes, I reimbursed voluntarily each and every victim

11 who filed a claim with the better business bureau here on

12 Long Island.

13 Q Did the judge impose any special condition of your

14 probation?

15 A That I continue to cooperate with the U.S.

16 Government, and that I, of course, would not violate any

17 other laws in my probation period.

18 Q Are you still on probation?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q When does your probation end?

21 A August of 1998.

22 Q Has the government promised you any benefit in

23 connection with your testimony here today?
24 A None whatsoever.
25 Q What is your understanding of what could happen to

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1 you if you were untruthful in your testimony at this

2 trial?

3 A My probation could be revoked and I could be

4 sentenced to the original jail term that is possible under

5 the guidelines.

6 Q Now, have you ever met a m an named Bruce Gordon?

7 A Not person to person, no.

8 Q Have you ever spoken to Bruce Gordon on the

9 telephone?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q Approximately when was that?

12 A In the Spring of 1990, I believe.

13 Q Now, was your Who's Who business in operation at this

14 time?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q Can you explain the circumstances under which you had

17 this telephone conversation with Mr. Gordon.

18 A It was brought to my attention there was a

19 competitive Who's Who opened up in Long Island, on Long

20 Island, and they hired one of my current salespeople. His

21 name is Jim, I can't spell his last name, but phonetically

22 it is Kenino.

23 I was given the phone number of that company to
24 call that company.
25 In fact, I called the company and the phone was

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1 answered Who's Who Worldwide. I put the phone down

2 immediately to think of what I would do next.

3 A few moments later I called back and asking for

4 the president of the company. I was put through to an

5 individual who identified himself as Bruce Gordon.

6 I indicated that it came to my attention that he

7 had taken my concept, and was creating a competitive Who's

8 Who, and he was employing a fellow named Jim Kenino, who

9 was my salesperson.

10 In that conversation Mr. Gordon denied that being

11 the case. He indicated he was involved in the sale of

12 vitamins and computers. Mr. Kenino had experience in that

13 field and was selling vitamins, and he, Mr. Gordon, had a

14 great level of experience in telemarketing, and had no

15 idea what I was talking about. It was a relatively short

16 three or four minute conversation, which ende d on that

17 basis.

18 Approximately a -- I am sorry.

19 Q Did you then have a subsequent conversation with

20 Mr. Gordon?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q Tell us about that.

23 A Approximately 30 minutes later it dawned on me that I
24 was naive, that the phone was answered twice, Who's Who
25 Worldwide, and in fact, it is possible that Mr. Gordon was

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1 not being candid on the phone with me.

2 I called back again asking for Mr. Gordon. And

3 the same individual who identified himself as Bruce Gordon

4 came to the phone. In this conversation he now admitted

5 that he had created a competitive Who's Who to my

6 company. He stated in fact that it was a big world out

7 there; that I had no ability to forestall him from using

8 the term "Who's Who."

9 I then indicated it came to my attention he had

10 taken my script and materials I had copyrighted. He

11 indicated it was his option to do and I would have no

12 action against him. In fact, if I were to bring an action

13 against him only the lawyers would get rich.

14 Mr. Gordon then stated that in fact, he operated

15 in a different style than I did, and he would be more

16 successful than I was. His style was to closely monitor

17 the salespeople, to literally walk up and down the

18 telemarketing room. And he was told that my style was to

19 do consulting, stay in the background and hire other

20 salespeople, a sales force.

21 He finally indicated his strategy of dealing with

22 salespeople who were difficult, who gave him a hard time,

23 was to state that they had stolen property from him and
24 have them arrested, and, therefore, no one would, quote,
25 clos e quote, investigate Bruce Gordon.

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1 I indicated I would seek out an attorney to sue

2 him. He indicated it would not be fruitful.

3 That was the last conversation we had.

4 Q Let me draw your attention to January of 1993.

5 At that time had you pleaded guilty yet?

6 A No, sir.

7 Q Had you entered into a cooperation agreement with the

8 government by that time?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q Now, was your business still operating at that point

11 in January of 1993?

12 A You are referring to Who's Who?

13 Q Yes.

14 A No, sir.

15 Q Now, did you assist postal inspectors in connection

16 with an investigation of any Who's Who companies around

17 that time, January of '93?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q Tell us what you did as part of your cooperation?

20 A As part of my cooperation agreement with the approval

21 of Postal Inspector Leonard, L E O N A R D, advertisements

22 were placed in Newsday and the New York Times indicating

23 that a new Who's Who was being formed, and we were seeking
24 experienced Who's Who salespeople. One of the
25 advertisements indicated that a former individual involved

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1 in Who's Who was setting up the company.

2 Respondents to the advertisements called my toll

3 free number, and spoke to in this case, my wife, who would

4 obtain information as to the background of the

5 individuals.

6 Subsequently she arranged appointments for me to

7 interview these individuals at the Garden City Hotel in

8 Garden City, Long Island. And those interviews were in

9 fact held on two separate occ asions at the Garden City

10 Hotel.

11 Q Now, at this time was your arrest public?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q At this time was your cooperation public?

14 A No, sir.

15 Q Now, did you received any instructions from the

16 postal inspectors as to how to conduct these interviews?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q What instructions did you receive?

19 A Basically be honest and be accurate. That was pretty

20 much the limit of the instructions.

21 Q Now, in connection with this operation, did you meet

22 a man named Frank Martin?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And was this meeting with Frank Martin recorded?
25 A Yes, sir.

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1 Q Can you tell us how it was recorded?

2 A Inspector Leonard gave me a recording device that was

3 put into an eyeglass case. The eyeglass case was put on

4 to the conference table in which the interviews were held.

5 Q Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1379-A, which is

6 not in evidence, but a transcript of tape number 1379,

7 which is in evidence.

8 (Handed to the witness.)

9 Q Now, have you reviewed that transcript prior to

10 today?

11 A Yes.

12 Q What is it?

13 A A transcript of the conversation that I had with

14 Frank Martin at the Garden City Hotel on Long Island.

15 THE COURT: What was the date of that

16 conversation?

17 THE WITNESS: January 20th, 1993.

18 Q Now, let me draw your attention to April of 1993.

19 Were you asked to do anything by postal

20 inspectors at that time?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q What were you asked to do then?

23 A I was asked to place phone calls to a company known
24 as Oxford Who's Who also domiciled in Long Island, and a

25 phone call to Who's Who Worldwide. With the assistance of

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1 Officer Leonard, those two conversations were recorded.

2 Q What were you asked to do in those telephone

3 conversations -- well, what were you asked to do in the

4 telephone conversation to Who's Who Worldwide?

5 A I was asked to pose as an applicant to Who's Who

6 Worldwide and to engage in a conversation with the sales

7 representative so as to determine the nature of the sales

8 presentation.

9 Q And did you do that?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q And was this telephone conversation recorded?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q Now, let me direct your attention to the summer of

14 1994.

15 Were you asked to do anything by postal

16 inspectors at that time?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q What were you asked to do then?

19 A Inspector Biegelman, I believe it is -- do you have

20 the spelling of that, sir -- asked me to make some phone

21 calls to Who's Who Worldwide, again indicating that I was

22 an applicant to Who's Who Worldwide, and to determine the

23 nature of the sales presentation.
24 Inspector Biegelman supplied me with a letter of
25 solicitation from a person alleging to be Cathy Ross,

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1 R O S S, indicating that the party receiving that letter

2 had in fact been nominated, and I was to indicate that I

3 had received that letter, and had sent in my ballot or

4 application, and not received a call back as of yet.

5 Q Now, when you were asked to do this by the postal

6 inspectors, were you told anything else regarding the

7 government's investigation?

8 A No, sir.

9 Q Did you ever make calls to Sterling Who's Who?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q Can you tell us combined how many phone calls you

12 made to Who's Who Worldwide and Sterling?

13 A A total of 15 phone calls altogether.

14 Q The ones in 1994, for how long did those calls

15 stretch?

16 A Until March of 1995.

17 Q Now, in those conversations how did you identify

18 yourself?

19 A I identified myself with various names and various

20 professions associated with those names.

21 Q Let's start with the names. Were those real names?

22 A No, sir, they were not, with the exception of one

23 name.
24 Q And were they -- what occupations did you assume?
25 A I assumed a broad array of occupations. Initially I

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4408
Watstein-direct/White


1 assumed the occupation of a vice president at a couple of

2 companies. And then I assumed the occupation of a

3 beautician, gas station operator, a delicatessen operator,

4 a third grade teacher, a salesperson, a night clerk at a

5 motel, and various other professions.

6 Q Now, at any point after you began to make the calls,

7 did you receive any instructions from Inspector Biegelman

8 regarding what occupations you should assume?

9 A Somewhere in the first quarter or so of my calls,

10 Inspector Biegelman suggested that I choose an occupation

11 that was less prestigious, such as a beautician or a gas

12 station operator. But that was the limit of his

13 instructions.

14 Q You indicated on one occasion you used a real name?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q Can you tell us about that occasion?

17 A Inspector Biegelman asked that I actually consummate

18 the cost of a membership, and knowing it would require a

19 credit card, and the credit card would have to have a real

20 original's name, I obtained the permission of my

21 father-in-law, whose name is Al Weinman, W E I N M A N,

22 Weinman. He gave me his credit card, and I called up as

23 Mr. Weinman and completed the transaction and purchased
24 the membership.
25 Q Aside from that conversation did you actually

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4409
Watstein-direct/White


1 purchase a membership in any of the other telephone

2 conversations?

3 A I believe on one occasion I used a credit card early

4 that did not exist, and technically completed the

5 purchase. Inspector Biegelman said I should not do that

6 again, and not use a credit card that was invalid. Other

7 than that one instance I never completed another purchase

8 of membership.

9 Q What did you do, if anything, at the end of the

10 conversations to avoid purchasing a membership?

11 A I indicated in some occasions my credit card was not

12 with me, it was out in the car, I left at home, or I would

13 have to get approval of my boss to use the company credit

14 card, and my boss was not available.

15 Q Now, did you ask any questions in these

16 conversations?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Tell us what sort of questions you asked?

19 A One of the questions I asked was what percentage of

20 the people who applied for membership in Who's Who

21 Worldwide were in fact accepted.

22 Q What other questions did you ask?

23 A I asked where my name came from, who in fact
24 nominated me. I asked if this was a prestigious
25 organization. I asked how long the company had been in

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4410
Watstein-di rect/White


1 business, were they financially solid and responsible? I

2 asked if all the famous people listed in the phone

3 conversations in fact went through the same interview that

4 I did. I asked in fact did Boris Yeltsin really go

5 through an interview, which was indicated to me. And I

6 asked in fact the nature of the approval process for my

7 application.

8 Q Now, during the 61 telephone calls, did you have a

9 conversation with an individual who identified herself as

10 Annette Haley?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q Did you have any conversation with an individual who

13 identified himself as Scott Michaelson?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q Did you have any conversations with an individual who

16 identified herself as Laura Winters?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Did you have any conversation with an individual who

19 identified himself as Steve Walden?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q Now, were these conversations recorded?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q Now, in the 61 times that you made telephone calls,
24 how many times were you offered membership?
25 A All 61.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4411
Watstein-direct/White


1 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, if I could have just one

2 moment?

3 THE COURT: Yes.

4 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

5 proceedings.)

6 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, no further questions.

7 THE COURT: Cross-examination.

8 MR. NELSON: Your Honor, may we have a sidebar

9 first, before we proceed with cross-examination?

10 THE COURT: Yes.

11

12 (Whereupon, at this time the following took place

13 at the sidebar.)

14 MR. NELSON: Before we proceed with

15 cross-examination, I am sure there is additional 3500

16 mater ial not provided to us which we have requested, which

17 is abundantly clear on the testimony of this witness.

18 Specifically what I would be requesting is any transcripts

19 or recordings made by this witness in the two separate

20 dates that he made interviews at the Garden City Hotel in

21 January of 1993. I requested that in my written request

22 for 3500 material, in my Rule 16 letter back in October.

23 I requested it again before Judge Pohorelsky. The
24 government has not provided that material.
25 This gentlemen testified he met with other people

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4412

1 at the Garden City Hotel. It is prior statements we are

2 entitled to.

3 Also, he indicated he made a call to Who's Who

4 Worldwide in April of 1993. We have not been provided

5 with a tape recording of that particular phone call. He

6 indicated that he did record that.

7 Third, he has testified with respect to sales

8 scripts and solicitation letters used in his company. And

9 he made a comparison in sum and substance with the

10 solicitation letters used by Who's Who Worldwide and his

11 company. We requested those documents from October and

12 never have been provided those documents.

13 It is my understanding based on an investigation

14 he was the preparer of both the solicitation letters and

15 the scripts themselves. Accordingly it would be prior

16 statements of this witness. I believe we are entitled to

17 that as 3500 material.

18 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, let me take them one at a

19 time.

20 Number two, the April '93 tape, Mr. Nelson is

21 wrong. They have been provided with it. In fact, it is

22 an exhibit at this trial.

23 THE COURT: Those were the interviews?

2 4 MR. WHITE: No. There is the interview --
25 THE COURT: You are going to the second request

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4413

1 before the first request?

2 MR. WHITE: Yes.

3 THE COURT: I have to do things very

4 methodically. I don't have that quick of a mind.

5 MR. WHITE: Going back to number one, the

6 interviews of the January 1993 tapes.

7 As Mr. West indicated, there was an investigation

8 of several Who's Who companies, Oxford Who's Who is one he

9 mentioned and Who's Who Worldwide.

10 THE COURT: These are the interview at the Garden

11 City Hotel?

12 MR. WHITE: Yes.

13 The defendants were provided with all the tapes

14 relating to Worldwide tapes, the Mr. Martin ones and a

15 Regina tape.

16 THE COURT: Those are the interview in 1993 at

17 the Garden City Hotel?

18 MR. WH ITE: Right.

19 I don't think there is any reason they are

20 entitled to any tapes of interviews of people with another

21 company and another case. I don't think they still

22 exist. In any event, it doesn't seem to have any bearing

23 here.
24 MR. NELSON: Might I respond briefly to that?
25 MR. WHITE: Let me continue, please.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4414

1 The second, April '93 call --

2 THE COURT: Let's get through with first the

3 Oxford interviews at the Garden City Hotel.

4 You said you don't know if you have them?

5 MR. WHITE: I don't think they exist. I don't

6 think they are in any event, something that would be 3500.

7 THE COURT: If they don't exist the whole thing

8 is moot.

9 MR. WHITE: That's true.

10 THE COURT: Why don't you find out if they

11 exist. How would you find that out?

12 MR. WHITE: I can make a call at lunchtime to the

13 postal inspector involved.

14 THE COURT: So you will find out.

15 Assuming they do exist, why are they relevant?

16 MR. NELSON: These are statements made by

17 Mr. West during the course of the interview with people

18 when my client was interviewed either on the same day or

19 on different days. He testified that he was a cooperating

20 witness at that time, being asked to provide information

21 with respect to competing Who's Who organizations. One of

22 them was Who's Who Worldwide. One of them was Oxford

23 Who's Who. They were seeking to elicit information from
24 those organizations.
25 THE COURT: Find out if they are still

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4415

1 available. If they are still available, bring them in.

2 MR. WHITE: Okay.

3 THE COURT: What is the second one?

4 MR. NELSON: That's the April date, if they exist

5 I will withdraw my tape.

6 THE COURT: What is the third one?

7 MR. NELSON: The solicitation records and the

8 scripts prepared by Mr. West as they related to his

9 companies.

10 THE COURT: Do you have those?

11 MR. WHITE: That I can say I looked this weekend

12 in the U.S. Attorney's file. They don't appear to be

13 there. I asked the postal inspectors. And the postal

14 inspectors as I previously told the defense, discarded a

15 lot of the material when the west coast was disclosed, so

16 I don't believe we have it any more.

17 THE COURT: You can ask the witness if he knows

18 where they are.

19 The only thing open now is the tapes of the

20 Garden City Hotel, the Oxford Who's Who.

21 MR. WHITE: Yes.

22 MR. NELSON: I know for the record that the

23 government can't produce anything they don't have. But I
24 would note for the record I made the request for the
25 search back in September. The government is now

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4416

1 indicating it is first looking at them during the

2 testimony in February as the witness is about to be

3 crossed. I don't believe it is good faith diligent

4 efforts to locate documents on a lengthy investigation

5 that Mr. White has been supervising for in excess of three

6 years at this point.

7 MR. WHITE: I had nothing to do with the West

8 case. The West case was closed before I was even with the

9 U.S. Attorney's Office.

10 THE COURT: All right. Let's proceed.

11

12 (Whereupon, at this time the following takes

13 place in open court.)

14 THE COURT: You may proceed, Mr. Jenks.

15 MR. JENKS: I need just one moment, your Honor.

16 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

17 proceedings.)

18

19 CROSS-EXAMINATION

20 BY MR. JENKS:

21 Q Mr. Watstein, you told us you own a company now, am I

22 correct?

23 A Yes.
24 Q That company is in Weston, Florida?
25 A No, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4417
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q The company is in Florida?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q And I take it you are the president and CEO of that

4 company; is that correct?

5 A That's correct, sir.

6 Q You do consulting work for Core State Bank?

7 A A division of the bank.

8 Q And for Just Great Coffee?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And for Larry Tucker, Inc.; is that correct?

11 A Yes.

12 Q These are all businesses, I take it?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Core State Ban k is a big bank in Florida?

15 A No.

16 Q Where is the bank?

17 A Based out in Philadelphia.

18 Q It is a big bank?

19 A Yes.

20 Q How long have you been doing consulting work for this

21 bank?

22 A For the division of the bank, approximately a year.

23 Q And for Just Great Coffee?
24 A Almost three years.
25 Q For Larry Tucker?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4418
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Four or five years.

2 Q Have you told these people you are a convicted felon?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q They are aware you pled guilty to six felonies in the

5 United States court and they continue to employ you?

6 A Let's separate the answer.

7 Q Answer the question.

8 THE COURT: Let's get the ground rules. Listen

9 to the questions. Most of the questions on

10 cross-examination will cal l for a yes or no answer. The

11 lawyers are permitted to zero in on what the specific

12 question is that they are interested in.

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

14 THE COURT: If you don't know or don't remember,

15 say so. Otherwise try to remember yes -- otherwise try to

16 answer you don't remember. If you can answer yes or no,

17 no explanation. Just say yes or no. If you can't, say I

18 can't answer yes or no, shifting the burden to the

19 cross-examiner as to what they will do.

20 In addition, Mr. White is listening carefully to

21 what you are saying. If he feels you were not permitted

22 to answer completely, or in his view not completely. He

23 will have another opportunity to question you.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
25 THE COURT: Right now try to answer responsively.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4419
Watstein-cross/J enks


1 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

2 THE COURT: You understand our procedure?

3 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

4 THE COURT: You may proceed.

5 Q Let's start again, Mr. West, or is it Mr. Watstein,

6 what are you most comfortable with?

7 A West is fine.

8 Q When did you adopt the name West, by the way?

9 A 18 years old.

10 Q Were you a student in the University of Pennsylvania

11 then?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Did you get a bachelors degree from the University of

14 Pennsylvania?

15 A Yes.

16 Q You got a bachelors degree from the Wharton School?

17 A Yes.

18 Q At the University of Pennsylvania?

19 A Yes.

20 Q That's an ivy league school?

21 A Yes.

22 Q A prestigious place; is that correct?

23 A Yes.
24 Q They didn't teach you to lie, cheat and steal at the
25 University of Pennsylvania, did they?



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4420
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A No.

2 Q The professors at the Wharton School, a business

3 school?

4 A Yes.

5 Q They didn't teach you to lie in business, did they?

6 A That's right.

7 Q They didn't teach you to make misrepresentations to

8 customers of yours; is that right?

9 A That's right.

10 Q They didn't teach you to steal their money by not

11 giving them refunds; is that right?

12 A That is correct.

13 Q That's not what you were taught at the University of

14 Pennsylvania; is that correct?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q You did that anyway in business; is that right?

17 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no.

18 Q You did lie to customers, yes?

19 A That is correct.

20 Q You did cheat customers out of money by not providing

21 them for what they were entitled to, yes?

22 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no,

23 Mr. Jenks.
24 Q Well, did you cheat customers out of money by
25 misrepresenting to them a product?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4421
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Yes.

2 Q And did you take customers' monies while owning Who's

3 Who in the U.S. Executives, without providing them a

4 registry or a book?

5 A In some cases, yes.

6 Q Let me make sure I understand this. You did

7 misrepresent the products to customers?

8 A Yes.

9 Q You did instruct salespeople to lie; is that correct?

10 A I think it is in general correct, yes.

11 Q You yourself lied; am I correct?

12 A No.

13 Q You never lied to anyone about your dealings in

14 business?

15 A Yes, I had.

16 Q You pled guilty to lying on six dif ferent times,

17 didn't you, in front of Judge Mishler?

18 A Not in response to your to your question, sir, I

19 didn't plead guilty to lying.

20 Q You pled guilty to six felonies before Judge

21 Mishler?

22 THE COURT: One moment.

23 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
24 proceedings.)
25 THE COURT: All right.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4422
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q You did lie while you were in business; is that

2 correct?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q You did cheat people out of money; is that correct?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q And in fact, you did steal some of their money by not

7 providing them the products that they were entitled to; is

8 that correct?

9 A In the minority of cases, yes.

10 Q But in cases; is that correct?

11 A Yes.

12 Q But you did lie, cheat a nd steal as you were in

13 business?

14 A As you defined it, yes, sir.

15 Q You did lie, cheat and steal all the way up from the

16 time you graduated the University of Pennsylvania, to the

17 time you were sentenced before Judge Mishler; is that

18 correct?

19 A No.

20 Q Certainly when you ran Who's Who in U.S. Executives,

21 you were lying, cheating and stealing; is that right?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q And that's not what you were taught by people in the
24 University of Pennsylvania; is that correct?
25 A That's right, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4423
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q It is not what you were taught by Mr. and

2 Mrs. Watstein, your parents; is that right?

3 A That's right.

4 Q Your parents didn't teach you, did they, to lie,

5 cheat and steal when you were a little boy?

6 A No, sir.

7 Q You did it on your own; is that correct?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q Voluntarily; is that correct?

10 A Yes.

11 Q You adopted that?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q And with this consulting business that you had --

14 withdrawn.

15 As you sit here today, you are a convicted felon;

16 is that right?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q You pled guilty in a United States federal court to

19 six separate felonies; am I right?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q You pled guilty voluntarily; is that correct?

22 A That is correct.

23 Q No one forced you or threatened you into pleading
24 guilty?
25 A That is correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4424
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q You did so after consulting with a lawyer, right?

2 A Yes.

3 Q You pled guilty because you were in fact guilty?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q You were in fact guilty of conspiracy to commit mail

6 and wire fraud; is that right?

7 A Yes.

8 Q You were in fact guilty of mail fraud?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And wire fraud?

11 A Yes.

12 Q You were in fact guilty of evading some 600 plus

13 thousand dollars in taxes; is that right?

14 A Yes.

15 Q You were in fact guilty of staging a fake break in to

16 a limousine and ripping off Allstate Insurance Company?

17 A No, sir.

18 Q To money you were not entitled to?

19 A No.

20 Q You were not?

21 A Not as you phrase the question, sir.

22 Q Not as I phrase it.

23 What is it you don't understand about the
24 question, Mr. Watstein?
25 A I totally understand your question.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4425
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q You understand it?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q Let me ask you this: Did you get a check from

4 Allstate Insurance Company for some $8,500 approximately?

5 A Not to the best of my knowledge, sir.

6 Q Did you ever get a check from Allstate Insurance

7 Company?

8 A Not to the best of my knowledge.

9 Q Did you file a claim with Allstate Insurance Company?

10 A Yes.

11 Q You did?

12 A Yes.

13 Q For a break in of a limousine; correct?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Did you submit false and fraudulent documents

16 supporting that claim to the Allstate Insurance Company?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q In other words, you yourself created fictitious

19 documents for items in that limousine and then sent them

20 to the company; is that correct?

21 A That is correct, sir.

22 Q Those items were not in the limousine, were they?

23 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no.

24 Q The question then is this: You told Allstate
25 Insurance Company that there were items in the limousine

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4426
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 that was broken into that were yours and that you lost; is

2 that correct?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q All right.

5 Then Allstate Insurance Company told you, give us

6 some receipts for those items that you say were in the

7 limousine; is that right?

8 A Correct.

9 Q And then you went out on your own, being from the

10 University of Pennsylvania, and created false receipts to

11 provide to Allstate Insurance Company, right?

12 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no.

13 Q What did you do, sir, that made you plead guilty to

14 the counts of filing false documents with Allstate

15 Insurance Company?

16 A The majority of the docume nts were in fact accurate

17 receipts. There were some receipts which were not

18 accurate.

19 Q You submitted additional receipts to beef up the

20 claim?

21 A Yes.

22 Q To the insurance company; is that right?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And so you could inflate the damage?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4427
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q So you could steal and cheat Allstate like you were

2 cheating your customers in Who's Who among U.S.

3 Executives?

4 A I can't answer the question.

5 Q It is the same thing?

6 A No.

7 Q You were stealing from your customers, now you were

8 trying to steal from Allstate, isn't it the same thing?

9 A I can't answer the question with a yes or no.

10 Q Are there two different types of stealing in your

11 mind?

12 A I think the words " stealing" has different

13 definitions, yes.

14 Q And you lied -- when you put in fake receipts in the

15 package and sent it to Allstate you lied about it?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And you lied to your customers as well; is that

18 correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And you lied while you were conducting the business;

21 is that correct?

22 A Yes.

23 Q So you have lied numerous times before; is that
24 right?
25 A That is correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4428
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q In fact, you are the voice that we heard on these

2 tapes; is that right?

3 A That is correct.

4 Q You know Mr. White played some tapes in the

5 courtroom, right?

6 A I don't have first-hand knowledge of them, no.

7 Q You listened to the tapes?

8 A Yes.

9 Q You made the 61 tapes; is that r ight?

10 A Yes.

11 Q You are the phony that calls in and says you are in

12 some kind of paper business, right? You recall that tape,

13 in Atlanta, Georgia?

14 A Yes, I do.

15 Q You weren't in Atlanta, Georgia in some kind of phony

16 paper business, were you?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q You are not some kind of regional director for Burger

19 King, are you?

20 A That's right.

21 Q You weren't a regional director for Burger King when

22 you made those tapes?

23 A That's right.
24 Q You might have been in Atlanta, Georgia when you made
25 the tapes?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4429
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A It wasn't relevant, yes.

2 Q Were you in Atlanta, Georgia when you made the tapes?

3 A No.

4 Q Were you in a paper company?

5 A No.

6 Q Were you workin g for Burger King?

7 A No, sir.

8 Q And these are things that you created in your mind in

9 order to try to entrap and scam other people; is that

10 correct?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q Well, wait a second.

13 You did this, you made these calls not

14 voluntarily, am I right?

15 A I made these calls at the request of the postal

16 inspector.

17 Q You made these calls to save yourself from going to

18 jail, that's the truth?

19 A No, sir.

20 Q Before -- withdrawn.

21 You were sentenced by Judge Mishler in August of

22 1995; am I right?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And these calls were made in August of 1994 through
25 March of 1995; am I correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4430
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Uh-huh.

2 Q And you made those calls with the coaching and the

3 assi stance of the United States Government, right?

4 A No, sir.

5 Q You made those calls own your own?

6 A Substantially on my own with minimum direction.

7 Q Who Inspector Biegelman, who, by the way, happens to

8 be the postal inspector who was in charge of this

9 investigation, you are aware of that?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And you made these calls with Inspector Biegelman's

12 knowledge and consent; is that correct?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q And you misrepresented who you were on the telephone

15 when you were making those calls, right?

16 A At his request, yes, sir.

17 Q And you were doing what you do best, and that is lie;

18 is that right?

19 A I can't respond to your question with a yes or no,

20 sir.

21 Q You know how to lie, correct? You have admitted

22 that, right?

23 A Yes.
24 Q You are a professional at it, right?
25 A N o, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4431
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q You are not? You spent four years that you were at

2 Who's Who U.S. Executives, scamming and cheating people;

3 is that correct?

4 A That is correct.

5 Q And then you came in and you cooperated with the

6 government, and you scammed these people into insuring

7 that you got no jail; is that right?

8 A No, sir.

9 Q And not only did you scam these people into insuring

10 you get no jail, but now you are trying to scam the jury

11 into convicting these people for something they didn't do,

12 right?

13 A Not accurate, sir, no.

14 Q Mr. West, let's take a look --

15 MR. JENKS: Can I have the original information

16 of Mr. West, if you have it?

17 THE COURT: Can you hold it a moment, Mr. Jenks?

18 (Whereupon, at this time there w as a pause in the

19 proceedings.)

20 THE COURT: You can proceed in the meantime.

21 Q Mr. West, I am going to show you

22 Government's Exhibit 3500-22-D.

23 (Handed to the witness.)
24 Q I will ask you to take a look at that.
25 Is that the information that you pled guilty to

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4432
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 before Judge Mishler on March 3rd, 1993?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q Taking a look at the second page -- before we do

4 that, this information contains six counts; is that

5 correct?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q All of these counts are felonies; is that correct?

8 A That is correct.

9 Q When we say felonies -- withdrawn.

10 All six of those counts were explained to you by

11 your attorney; is that right?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q And you had gone over these counts before you pled

14 guilty; is that correct?

15 A That is correct.

16 Q And you had an ample opportunity to see this

17 information before you pled guilty to it; is that right?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q In fact, you also saw your cooperation agreement

20 before you pled guilty with your cooperation agreement; is

21 that right?

22 A Repeat your question, sir.

23 Q You also had an ample opportunity to read your
24 cooperation agreement; is that correct?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4433
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q This wasn't just sprung on you at the time of the

2 plea before Judge Mishler; is that right?

3 A That is correct.

4 Q And let's take a look at this information.

5 The first count in the information is your count,

6 where you pled guilty to conspiring to commit mail and

7 wire fraud; am I correct? That's the conspiracy count?

8 A That is correct.

9 Q And in this count it charges you, does it not, on

10 page 3 in paragraph 9 of making false and fraudulent

11 misrepresentations to customers; is that correct?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q And it also charges you with making false statements

14 that the company could not cancel their orders because an

15 imprint was already fixed to book covers; is that correct?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q And when people called seeking a cancellation, you

18 had instructed people to tell them that a book had already

19 gone to print with their name in it so you couldn't cancel

20 their order; is that correct?

21 A Yes, for a brief period of time, yes.

22 Q That was not true; is that correct?

23 A Yes.
24 Q That was part of your conspiracy to commit mail and
25 wire fraud; is that right?



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4434
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A That is correct, sir.

2 Q And you also, as part of your conspiracy to commit

3 mail and wire fraud, sent out letters signed by Thornton

4 Rockefeller; is that right?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And there is no Thornton Rockefeller; is that right?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And I take it when you used the word or name

9 Rockefeller, you intended to lie somehow that the

10 Rockefeller family had something to do with your business;

11 is that right?

12 A No, sir.

13 Q The name Rockefeller was not just picked out of the

14 thin air, was it?

15 A No, sir.

16 Q The name Rockefeller was deliberately designed to be

17 used by you to create a false prestige about your company;

18 is that correct?

19 A The answer to that question is yes, sir.

20 Q The answe r to that is yes?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q We are going to get into semantics here; is that

23 right?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q And you used the name Rockefeller, right? The

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4435
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Rockefeller family had nothing to do with your

2 organization, right?

3 A That is correct.

4 Q You don't know any of the Rockefellers, do you?

5 A Yes, I do.

6 Q You don't?

7 A Yes, I do not.

8 Q You don't know any of them?

9 A Correct.

10 Q You have never met any of them?

11 A Yes, I have.

12 Q They didn't give you any permission to use their name

13 in any Who's Who letter; is that right?

14 A That's correct.

15 Q When you sent this Thornton Rockefeller letter in the

16 mail, it was designed to fool someone into believing that

17 Thornt on Rockefeller was somehow a member of your

18 selection committee; is that correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q There was no Thornton Rockefeller on the selection

21 committee; is that correct?

22 A That's right.

23 Q You didn't have a selection committee, did you?
24 A Not in substance.
25 Q You certainly didn't have one with a Rockefeller on

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4436
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 it; is that right?

2 A Yes, we did not.

3 Q The name Harlan Carnegie, there is no Harlan

4 Carnegie; is that right?

5 A That's right.

6 Q You told Judge Mishler you used these names?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And you told him it was a scam to fool people into

9 believing that's Rockefeller and Carnegie were in fact

10 associated with my business; is that right?

11 A Not the phrase I used at my sentence -- it w as the

12 sum and substance of it.

13 Q You can call it what you want, it was a scam?

14 A You can call it what you want.

15 Q I will call it a scam?

16 A I will agree with you.

17 Q It was a scam to use the name Harlan Carnegie, was

18 it?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q And the Carnegies did not give you permission to use

21 their name in a letter?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q And you had represented to people that both
24 Rockefeller and Carnegie were actively involved in the
25 selection process; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4437
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Yes.

2 Q And they were from the famous Rockefeller and

3 Carnegie families and were in fact physically present in

4 your company twice a week?

5 A I don't represent that.

6 Q Does it say that in the information, tak e a look at

7 the overt acts section?

8 A What page?

9 Q 4.

10 A What paragraph are you on, sir?

11 Q Paragraph B, the bottom of that paragraph?

12 A Yes, sir, I read it.

13 Q You read that?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q Were they physically present at the company about

16 twice a week?

17 A I did not make that statement, sir, if you read that

18 paragraph.

19 Q Okay.

20 How did it get in the information?

21 A Mr. Fletcher indicated he made such a statement.

22 Q That's how it got put into your information?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q Did you contest that with anyone while you were in
25 front of Judge Mishler?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4438
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A No. It doesn't read that I made that statement,

2 sir.

3 Q Were you aware that Mr. Fletcher told people that

4 Harlan Carnegie and Thornton Rockefeller were in your

5 companies twice a week?

6 A No, sir.

7 Q And you were aware you were using those names?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And other people told other salespeople at your

10 company, who had made fraudulent misrepresentations to

11 your customers; is that right?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And that's part of what you pled guilty to in the

14 conspiracy to commit mail and wire fraud?

15 A That is correct, sir.

16 Q And you were aware that these people were making

17 these false representations; is that correct?

18 A Not in all cases, sir.

19 Q In most cases?

20 A No.

21 Q You ran the company?

22 A I was aware numerous misrepresentations were made,

23 not in all cases.
24 Q Who got the profit from the company, did Don Fletcher
25 get the profit or did you use the profits to build your



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4439
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 house in Mill Neck?

2 A You want me to answer the question?

3 Q Yes.

4 A Rephrase the question.

5 Q Who made the profit from the company?

6 A There was no profit.

7 Q There was no profit?

8 A No.

9 Q You grossed 14 million dollars in sales in four

10 years, you are telling me there was no profit from the

11 company?

12 A Yes.

13 Q You and your wife were driving around in the

14 limousine and there was no profit in the company?

15 A Profit is different from salaries to answer your

16 question.

17 Q I don't want to get into a word contest with you, did

18 you make profit from the company?

19 A As you defined the words, no.

20 Q Did you make money?

21 A Me personally?

22 Q Yes.

23 A Yes, sir.

24 Q You put money in your pocket?
25 A Yes, a salary.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4440
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q You were going around in a limousine?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q Not only were you going around in a limousine, but

4 you were constructing a 20,000 square foot mansion on the

5 North Shore of Long Island in Mill Neck, New York?

6 A Yes.

7 Q You were spending money like it was water; is that

8 correct?

9 A Yes.

10 Q You were spending money at a great pace?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q And you were spending money building a mansion for

13 you and your wife to live in with money you had stolen

14 from people, right?

15 A Partially, yes, sir.

16 Q Did you tell people there was a selection committee

17 comprised of business executives?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q There was no selecti on committee comprised of

20 business executives; is that right?

21 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no.

22 Q Let me ask you this: Was Jim Moore, the vice

23 president of Citibank, on any kind of selection committee
24 you had?
25 A Jim Moore was to be advised by my secretary of

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4441
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 participation, I don't know if he was --

2 Q Was he on a selection committee?

3 A Not that I know of.

4 Q Did you have a selection committee?

5 A Not in substance.

6 Q Did you represent to potential customers there was a

7 selection committee?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Jim Moore, the vice president of Citibank

10 Corporation, was not on your secretary committee?

11 A I believe he was not apprised by my secretary.

12 Q How about the former Assistant Attorney Ge neral John

13 Finnell, F I N N E L L, was he on your selection

14 committee?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q He was?

17 A Yes, sir. He performed no function, but he was in

18 fact on the committee.

19 Q You put him on the committee?

20 A There was no such committee. He was aware of it and

21 consented to it.

22 Q He consented to being on it?

23 A He asked to be withdrawn once the investigation
24 commenced.
25 Q Once he realized you were nothing but a fraud he

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4442
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 asked to be withdrawn from it; is that right?

2 A No, sir.

3 Q Now, the count, this count you pled guilty to in

4 front of Judge Mishler carries a five-year statutory

5 maximum; am I right?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q Up to 60 months in jail, right?

8 A Yes.

9 Q T hat one count, right?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q Now, besides this one count, you pled guilty, did you

12 not -- give me a moment, please?

13 THE COURT: Yes.

14 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

15 proceedings.)

16 Q You pled guilty to substantive mail fraud; is that

17 correct?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And substantive mail fraud, being different from a

20 conspiracy to commit mail fraud; is that right?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And in other words, an actual act of mail fraud?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And that carries a five-year statutory maximum; is
25 that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4443
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And you also pled guilty to -- I want to use the

3 correct terminology with you, the evasion of the payment

4 of income tax?

5 A That is correct, sir .

6 Q And would it be fair to say that you evaded some

7 $665,515.51 in income tax?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q And you pled guilty to that; is that correct?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q And the way you were able to get around that is that

12 you were shifting assets from your company into the name

13 of Sherri Lori West, who is your wife; is that correct?

14 A Yes, Sherri, S H E R R I, two R's.

15 Q You were putting money that was legitimately yours

16 into her name?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Or assets into her name?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q And let's talk about some of the assets you had.

21 Did you own a house in San Diego, California?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q You bought that?
24 A You are referring to me and my wife.
25 Q Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4444
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A It was entitl ed to my wife's name.

2 Q Whose money did you use to buy the house?

3 A I was the beneficial owner of the house.

4 Q What is the market value of the houses?

5 A A few hundred thousand dollars.

6 Q Where is the house now?

7 A The same place it is now.

8 Q Did you own it?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q Did your wife own it?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Did you sell it?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Who sold it, the government or you?

15 A Mrs. West sold it.

16 Q When did she sell the property, sir?

17 A I believe 1991 or 1992.

18 Q And the proceeds from the property went where?

19 A To pay lawyers' fees.

20 Q You spent them?

21 A Yes.

22 Q You didn't use it to pay the $661,000 that you owed

23 the United States Government; is that true?
24 A That's not accurate, sir.
25 Q You paid back on 660,000 about $40,000; is that

HA RRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4445
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 accurate?

2 A No.

3 Q How much did you pay back?

4 A Subsequent to the information including in the

5 information I entered into an agreement with the Internal

6 Revenue Service to begin to pay them, and I paid them

7 $1,000 each month against the obligation.

8 Q A thousand dollars each month since you were

9 sentenced by Judge Mishler in August of 1995?

10 A Subsequent to that. I believe it was 1996.

11 Q '96, so you give them a thousand dollars a month?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And have they reduced the liability for you at all?

14 A No.

15 Q The liability is what number? What does it remain at

16 now?

17 A I don't know, sir. It is substantially the same

18 number based on interest accruing against it.

19 Q How much do you make in your business now as a

20 consultant?

21 A $100,000 a year.

22 Q Exactly?

23 A Approximately.
24 Q Is your wife gainfully employed in that business as
25 well?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4446
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A No, sir.

2 Q Is she working?

3 A No, sir.

4 Q You owned a piece of property in Florida as well; am

5 I correct?

6 A Yes, sir. Me beneficially, yes, sir.

7 Q And when did you own that property?

8 A Late 1980's, early 1990's.

9 Q Where was that property, sir?

10 A 355 Fern, F E R N, Drive, and that's Fort Lauderdale.

11 Q That's a home?

12 A No, sir.

13 Q It is a condominium?

14 A Townhouse.

15 Q Townhouse.

16 You bought the property in the late 80's?

17 A Mid-80's.

18 Q Mid-80's, do you still own the property?

19 A No, sir.

20 Q Does your wife own the property?

21 A No, sir.

22 Q Did you sell the property?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q When did you sell the property?
25 A I believe I previously testified it was early 1990's,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4447
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 late 1980's.

2 Q You sold it in the late 80's, early 90's?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q How much money did you get from the sale of that

5 property?

6 A I think it was around $75,000.

7 Q And what did you do with that money?

8 A Paid legal fees.

9 Q So that money is gone, too; is that right?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q And I think you testified you lived in the North

12 Shore Towers; is that correct?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And that's in Floral Park, Queens, off the Grand

15 Central Parkway?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Did you own a condominium in t he North Shore Towers?

18 A Beneficially, yes.

19 Q When you say "beneficially" does that mean the title

20 was not in your name?

21 A That's right.

22 Q It means it was in someone else's name; is that

23 right?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And you bought all these properties in other people's

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4448
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 names?

2 A Only one person's name, sir.

3 Q Your wife's?

4 A Yes.

5 Q To hide you from the Internal Revenue Service; is

6 that right?

7 A As previously testified, yes, sir.

8 Q Mr. West, you sold the condominium in the North Shore

9 Towers?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q When did you sell that?

12 A I believe it was 1990 or 1991.

13 Q And what did you do with that money?

14 A Used to reduce obligations and pay lawyer fees.

1 5 Q Well, you weren't indicted and in trouble in 1990 or

16 1991, were you?

17 A I incurred hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal

18 fees during that time.

19 Q Not from criminal cases?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q Criminal cases?

22 A This case we are discussing.

23 Q You were not arrested until '92, right?
24 A Counsel was retained in 1990, sir.
25 Q When they executed the search warrants?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4449
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Prior to that.

2 Q Was Mr. Bernstein your original counsel from the

3 beginning until the end?

4 A One of the attorneys, sir.

5 Q Who were the other attorneys?

6 A Robert Katzberg.

7 THE COURT: How do you spell that?

8 THE WITNESS: K A T Z B E R G, first name

9 Robert.

10 The other attorney is Laura -- I can't spell the

11 last name, Brevetti, B R E V E T T I, I am not sure of the

12 spelling of the name.

13 There were numerous other attorneys retained paid

14 for by me, those were the three leading attorneys.

15 Q Let's talk about count three. In your information in

16 count three, you pled here to defrauding the United States

17 by defeating the lawful governments functions of the

18 Internal Revenue Service of the United States Department

19 of Treasury in collection of that 665,000 that we talked

20 about; am I right?

21 A What page are you on, sir?

22 Q I am on page 10, sir.

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And you also pled to failing to pay payroll taxes for
25 the second calendar quarter of 1986; am I right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4450
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Technically that was not the plea, sir, but that is

2 included i n this.

3 Q It says $92,700 employment tax assessment imposed

4 against Sherri Lori West on or about April 24th, 1989; do

5 you see that?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q And that was in this count as well; is that correct?

8 A I believe the count deals with the way in which it

9 was done, not the nonpayment of the taxes.

10 Q Well, you didn't pay payroll taxes for the second

11 quarter of 1986; is that correct?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q And that was at some other company you had way before

14 U.S. Executives, Inc.; is that correct?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And do you still owe this amount of money to the

17 government, the payroll taxes?

18 A I don't believe that was assessed against me, sir.

19 Q You -- they took it away?

20 A I don't have a recollection of that, but I believe it

21 was assessed against me.

22 MR. NEVILLE: Your Honor, can you please ask t he

23 witness to slow down and speak up? I can't hear him.
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: I don't think it was assessed

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4451
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 against me personally.

2 THE COURT: Excuse me, Mr. Watstein, please let

3 there be a pause after the question. You very quickly

4 answer. There is nothing wrong with that. But it would

5 be better for everybody if you allow a slight pause after

6 the questioning.

7 THE WITNESS: Certainly, sir.

8 Q In support or trying to defraud the United States of

9 these payments you transferred various deeds to property

10 that we had just discussed into the name of your wife; is

11 that correct?

12 A That is not accurate, sir.

13 Q Well, you did transfer various deeds to property, did

14 you not?

15 A No, I did not.

16 Q Let's do it this way then: Let's take a look at the

17 overt acts on page 11, all right? Let's go to the

18 bottom.

19 Take first a look at the deed to the property

20 located at 355 Fern Drive, Fort Lauderdale, Florida, do

21 you see that?

22 A I am at the bottom of page 11, under overt acts?

23 Q Yes.
24 That overt act talks about a deed for a property
25 located on Fern Drive in Fort Lauderdale; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4452
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A That's correct.

2 Q And basically it says that a co-conspirator, Sherri

3 Lori West caused the filing with the county clerk of

4 Broward County, Florida of the deed to a property?

5 A Accurate the way it reads.

6 Q Not made up in the information?

7 A Not the slightest.

8 Q Your wife did cause the filing of that deed; is th at

9 correct?

10 A Yes.

11 Q At your insistence, urging and coaching?

12 A Yes.

13 Q You were behind that?

14 A Yes.

15 Q She didn't unilaterally decide to wake up one day and

16 do it on her own; is that right?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q And you did it so the government would not be aware

19 that you owned that piece of property in Florida; is that

20 right?

21 A That is correct.

22 Q Let's take a look at the next overt act on page 12.

23 You caused the filing with the county clerk in
24 San Diego, California, of a quick claim deed for property
25 located on La Costa Avenue in California; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4453
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A That is correct.

2 Q And you did that; is that right?

3 A I caused it.

4 Q The reason you gave a quick clai m deed is to get the

5 title out of your name, and I suppose you gave the quick

6 claim deed to your wife?

7 A The title was never in my name, sir.

8 Q You quick claimed -- withdrawn.

9 You caused the filing of the deed in California,

10 right?

11 A That is correct, sir.

12 Q And the reason you did it, quite simply, was, again,

13 so the government wouldn't know that you had a beneficial

14 interest in that property in California?

15 A That is correct.

16 Q Now, did you also -- were you also behind your

17 wife -- withdrawn.

18 Did you also make your wife the president of

19 Direct Marketing Consortium?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q That's a company you controlled?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And that's a company I take it different from U.S.
24 Who's Who Executives?
25 A An affiliated but different company.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR , CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4454
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q You made her the president of that company?

2 A Yes.

3 Q So you would have no ownership interest in that

4 company; is that right?

5 A That is correct.

6 Q And you filled out, or you caused your wife to fill

7 out an Internal Revenue Service form W-9 as a responsible

8 corporate officer of direct marketing; is that right?

9 A It was filled out by someone else other than my wife,

10 at my request.

11 Q But that was at your request and your urging; is that

12 right?

13 A Yes.

14 Q All this part of not letting the government know what

15 you were really up to; is that right?

16 A That is correct, sir.

17 Q Take a look at page 13, as we are going through this

18 Internal Revenue Service evasion count here.

19 The property on Feeks, F E E K S, Lane in

20 M ill Neck, in August of 1988 you caused the filing with --

21 Sherri Lori West caused the filing with the county clerk

22 in Mineola, of a deed for property located off Feeks Lane

23 in Mill Neck; is that right?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Let's talk about Feeks Lane in Mill Neck.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4455
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 The piece of property was a vacant lot in

2 Mill Neck when you bought it?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q When did you buy it?

5 A I don't have a full recollection. I guess it was

6 1987.

7 Q A year before the title was put into your wife's

8 name?

9 A No, that would be consistent with the titling at the

10 same time.

11 Q But it was purchased in her name; is that right?

12 A That is correct.

13 Q Mill Neck is on the North Shore of Long Island; is

14 that correct?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And is it fair to say that Mill Neck is a minimum

17 five acre zoned community?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Very rich people live there?

20 A I don't have first-hand knowledge, but I assume that.

21 Q That's why you wanted to move there?

22 A Yes.

23 Q You wanted to move there because Mill Neck is an
24 extremely prestigious place to live on Long Island?
25 A I can't say that was my dominant motive, no, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4456
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q Your dominant motive was to get the prestige of

2 living on a piece of property on five acres in Mill Neck,

3 New York; is that right?

4 A No.

5 Q Your dominant motive was to build a 20,000 square

6 foot contemporary home that you and your wife could live

7 in; is that right?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q How much did you pay for that property in 1987 or

10 1988?

11 A I believe it was $600,000.

12 Q You didn't take a loan on it for $600,000, did you?

13 A My wife did take a loan, yes.

14 Q For what portion of that $600,000?

15 A I don't have a recollection.

16 Q Give us a ballpark?

17 THE COURT: You have to wait before you answer.

18 Maybe there could be a little pause.

19 Q If you take your hands away from your mouth when you

20 speak into the mike we will hear you better.

21 A I will try that.

22 Q Give us a ballpark how much money you laid out to buy

23 a vacant piece of land in Mill Neck, New York?
24 A I think it was $100,000, just a guess.
25 Q A ballpark guess as to what you put out?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4457
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Yes.

2 Q You hired individual contractors and home builders to

3 start erecting this mansion you are going to live in; is

4 that right?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q And that actually did take place; is that right?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q And you were building a big house there; is that

9 correct?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q And the house had a fire; is that right?

12 A Yes.

13 Q At one point; correct?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q When did it have the fire?

16 A I believe it was in 1991, January.

17 Q Right after the execution of some of these search

18 warrants; is that correct?

19 A No, sir.

20 Q When was the search warrant executed on the house in

21 Mill Neck, New York?

22 A In August of 1991, I believe.

23 Q And the fire occurred right before?
24 A It must have been 1992 then that the fire occurred.
25 Q The fire occurred after the execution of the search

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, C P, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4458
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 warrant?

2 A Yes, several months thereafter.

3 Q You are aware that the Nassau County fire marshal

4 claimed the fire was of suspicious circumstances?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q Were you investigated for that fire?

7 A I don't know if I was investigated. But I took a

8 polygraph and passed the polygraph.

9 Q You were questioned about your participation and/or

10 knowledge of the insurance fraud that was involved with

11 the burning of that house; is that correct?

12 A Actually, I requested the questioning, but I was

13 questioned, yes.

14 Q And you were initially a suspect in that fire; is

15 that right?

16 A I wasn't --

17 THE COURT: You have to wait.

18 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.

19 A What is the question?

20 Q Were you a suspect in that fire?

21 A I don't have any knowledge of being a suspect in that

22 fire.

23 Q All right.
24 Now that we are talking about fires, let me ask
25 you, do you own a toy factor or did you own a toy factor

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4459
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 or toy company at one point in Detroit?

2 A No.

3 Q In Michigan?

4 A No.

5 Q Did you own any kind of company in Michigan?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Did you own a company that had a fire in it in

8 Michigan at one time?

9 A Yes. About 25 years ago.

10 Q And that company burned down?

11 A No.

12 Q You had a fire in it?

13 A One of 18 stores burned down, that's right.

14 Q All right.

15 Looking further at this information, did you tell

16 the Internal Revenue Service that you were divorced from

17 your wife?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q You weren't divorced from your wife, correct?

20 A That is correct.

21 Q In fact, you are still with your wife; is that

22 correct?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q And you were with her all those number of years; is
25 that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4460
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Yes.

2 Q You never were legitimately separated from your wife?

3 A We had our problems, but never formally separated.

4 Q You never formally signed a separation agreement or

5 formally separated?

6 A That is correct.

7 Q You never did get divorced?

8 A That's right.

9 Q You told the Internal Revenue Service you were in

10 fact divorced from your wife and a resident of Carlsbad,

11 California; is that right?

12 A That's right.

13 Q You weren't a resident of Carlsbad, California and

14 divorc ed from your wife, were you?

15 A I can't answer that question yes or no.

16 Q You already said you weren't divorced from your wife?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q You didn't live as a resident full time in Carlsbad,

19 California; is that correct?

20 A I had a residency in Carlsbad, I never was a full

21 time.

22 Q You owned a home there, owned a home in Florida,

23 building a home in Mill Neck, New York, and you were
24 living in the North Shore Towers; is that right?
25 A That's right.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4461
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q You caused the creation of a property settlement

2 agreement between you and your wife back in 1988, which

3 falsely indicated you were separated; is that right?

4 A That's right.

5 Q Did you get prosecuted for that?

6 A It was one of the felonies to which I pl ed guilty to.

7 Q It was contained in the count; is that correct?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And you didn't get prosecuted separately for that,

10 did you?

11 A No.

12 Q Even before you started Who's Who in U.S. Executives

13 in 1989, you were lying, cheating and stealing concerning

14 other aspects of your life, right?

15 A That's not accurate, sir.

16 Q Oh, come on now, Mr. West -- withdrawn.

17 Mr. West, you were telling people back in 1988

18 before you started the corporation that you were divorced

19 from your wife; is that right?

20 A Sir, Who's Who was started in 1988 to --

21 Q Did you not tell Mr. White it was from 1989 to 1991

22 you ran Who's Who --

23 A 1988.
24 Q 1988.
25 Prior to 1988 and in 1988, you were committing

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4462
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 other acts where you lied to various government people; is

2 that correct?

3 A In 1988, yes, sir.

4 Q And prior to that, even in 1988, you were moving

5 property around, changing titles on things, all in an

6 effort to hide from the government; is that right?

7 A There were no acts prior to 1988, as far as I recall.

8 Q You weren't paying your taxes; is that right?

9 A It wasn't a crime, sir.

10 Q You pled guilty to it?

11 A I pled guilty subsequent to 1988.

12 Q Subsequent to 1988?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q And what about the taxes that were in here for the

15 second calendar quarter of 1996 for a corporation that you

16 controlled -- 1986, for a corporation that you controlled

17 that we discussed, that $92,000?

18 A The taxes accrued in that period, but I don't believe

19 my improper act was until 1988, when it was in fact not

20 paid.

21 Q But it accrued in 1986?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q You are supposed to pay payroll taxes when they
24 become due; is that right?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4463
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q So, on the second calendar quarter in 1986, the taxes

2 would have been due in the end of the second calendar

3 quarter of 1986; is that right?

4 A I think you can say that, yes, sir.

5 Q It is a crime to do that, right? You can't just not

6 pay payroll taxes to the government, correct?

7 A I don't believe it is a crime merely the nonpayment

8 of payroll taxes. The way in which I did it made it a

9 crime.

10 Q Because you were hiding all sorts of things about

11 your involvement in that company; is that right?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q So, it would be a fair statement to say that you were

14 s camming the government from like 1988 right up until the

15 time in May of 1992 when you were arrested, right?

16 A I think a more accurate statement would be May of

17 1988 until June of 1990.

18 Q Then June of 1990; is that right?

19 A Yes.

20 Q So for two and a half years you were defrauding the

21 government; is that right?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q No problem, you were defrauding them, right? Now
24 they are your best friends, correct?
25 A I don't think they are my best friends, sir, no.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4464
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q They went to bat for you on sentencing before Judge

2 Mishler; is that correct?

3 A I think they were fair with me, not my best friends.

4 Q Fair? They gave you the courthouse, didn't they,

5 sir?

6 A No, sir.

7 Q You were looking at 70 to 80 month s as a guideline

8 range of sentence, and you walked out the door for

9 everything you had done with three years probation and six

10 months house arrest? That was your sentence, right?

11 A That is correct.

12 Q And $50,000 that you had to pay; is that correct?

13 A And a million dollars in forfeiture.

14 Q That was money you weren't even entitled to, the

15 million dollars you had to forfeit, because you stole that

16 money, right?

17 A That's your perception, sir.

18 Q It is your perception that you stole the money, right?

19 A That money didn't come from Who's Who.

20 Q It didn't go to pay restitution to any of the victims

21 that million dollars; is that right?

22 A It was not the request of Judge Mishler.

23 Q You forfeited the million dollars of the insurance
24 settlement, the bank account and the property to the
25 United States government; is that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4465
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A That is correct.

2 Q And the reason you forfeited is because criminally

3 you took the property illegally, right?

4 A I can't answer that yes or no, sir.

5 Q You didn't have the right to that property legally,

6 did you?

7 A The settlement included other than properties as far

8 as forfeiture.

9 Q Can you answer the question yes or no?

10 If you had owned the property legally you would

11 not have given the property to the government, would you?

12 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, I am

13 sorry.

14 THE COURT: Is this a good time to take a break,

15 Mr. Jenks?

16 MR. JENKS: It is, your Honor.

17 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we will take a

18 recess until 2:15. I told you I have a meeting, and it is

19 right now, as a matter of fact.

20 Please do not discuss the case. Keep an open

21 mind. We will recess until 2:15.

22 Have an extra long nice lunch.

23 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the
24 courtroom.)
25 (Luncheon Recess.)

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4466
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N.

2 (Jury enters.)

3 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the

4 jury.

5 You may proceed, Mr. Jenks.

6 CROSS-EXAMINATION.

7 BY MR. JENKS: (Continued.)

8 Q Mr. Watstein, when we left off you said it was not

9 until 1988 that you began to commit various crimes,

10 correct?

11 A You amended that, refresh my memory of 1986.

12 Q But prior to 1988, in 1986 you had committed a crime

13 in not filing the second quarter of payroll taxes; am I

14 right?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q Now, prior to 1986, did you commit any other crimes?

17 A The American Sales and Marketing Institute matter,

18 which was the filing --

19 Q The answer is yes or no? Prior to 1986, did you

20 commit any other crimes, yes or no?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And what crimes did you commit prior to 1986?

23 A I believe it was in 1984 that I caused to be filed an
24 application with the post office for a not-for-profit
25 permit.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4467
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q That's Count 6 of the information, correct?

2 A That's correct.

3 Q Besides Count 6 in the information, prior to 1988,

4 did you commit any other crimes other than that?

5 A No, sir.

6 Q And so in 1984, when you filed a not-for-profit

7 status, that's the first time you say you committed a

8 crime?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q How old were you in 1984?

11 A Mid 40s.

12 Q So you just woke up one day and you decided you were

13 going to start committing crimes in your mid 40s?

14 A No, sir.

15 Q You didn't.

16 A No, sir.

17 Q Mr. Watstein, let's take a look at Count 5 in your

18 information.

19 This is yet another felony that you pled guilty

20 to, correct?

21 A What page are you on, sir?

22 Q I'm on page 16.

23 This is yet the fifth felony that you pled guilty
24 to in front of Judge Mishler; am I right?
25 A That's correct.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4468
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q And this is the felony that deals with defrauding the

2 Allstate Insurance Company, correct?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q And basically what this count alleges and what you

5 pled guilty to is t hat you had -- you and your wife had a

6 limousine which was vandalized on New Year's Eve in '88?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Who owned that limousine?

9 A My wife, but I owned it beneficially.

10 Q You were the owner?

11 A Yes.

12 Q You had that contract where everything was in her

13 name but you were the beneficial owner?

14 A That's not correct.

15 Q Most of the things were in her name?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q The limousine was in her name?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Did you have a driver that drove you around in the

20 limousine?

21 A Yes.

22 Q You paid the driver?

23 A Yes.
24 Q You paid the driver out of a corporation you owned?
25 A Yes, sir.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4469
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q There came a time that limousine was broken into on

2 that date?

3 A U mm-hmm.

4 Q And isn't it a fact that you caused fraudulent

5 statements and receipts to be sent to Allstate to obtain

6 $8,575 worth of refund on an insurance claim?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q And you submitted these false invoices to the

9 Allstate Insurance Company; am I right?

10 A That's correct.

11 Q And you told Allstate there were certain things in

12 that limousine that were stolen, correct?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And you provided them invoices for certain things,

15 right?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And many of those invoices were in and of themselves

18 false, right?

19 A Some of those invoices were false.

20 Q Some of them.

21 Many of the invoices that were false and

22 fraudulent were sent to Allstate?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And you submitted things in the limousine that
25 weren't even in there, right?

OWEN M. WIC KER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4470
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Yes.

2 Q And you got a refund check ultimately?

3 A I don't know if the check was received or not.

4 Q Take a look at paragraph 29 on page 17 on the

5 information and see if it refreshes your recollection as

6 to whether or not a settlement check was issued in an

7 amount of $8,325.97.

8 A Yes.

9 Q Does that refresh your recollection as to whether or

10 not you received the check?

11 A Not totally, sir, but I'm sure it is correct if it's

12 in the information.

13 Q And this count you pled guilty to as well carries a

14 five-year maximum term of imprisonment, right?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q All right.

17 Now, take a look at Count 6, the last count in

18 the information.

19 A (Perusing.)

20 Q That says way back in 1984, this is before you got

21 involved with Who's Who in U.S. Executives, correct?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q It says basically that you formed a corporation
24 called the American Sales and Marketing Institute, right?
25 A Yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4471
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q And that was your corporation?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q And you formed that corporation in 1984?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q And in New York?

6 A Umm-hmm.

7 Q And you applied or you sent an application to mail at

8 special bulk third class rates; am I right?

9 A Yes.

10 Q That's so you would be able to get a reduced sale on

11 passage when you were running that corporation?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And you did a lot of mailings out of that corporation

14 at reduced rate?

15 A Yes.

16 Q That's a crime too?

17 A Yes.

18 Q So you scamed the g overnment telling the government

19 that you were a not-for-profit corporation when you were

20 in fact a for-profit corporation, right?

21 A That's not quite accurate, sir.

22 Q You weren't running the American Sales and Marketing

23 Institute as a charity, were you?
24 A No.
25 Q You were running it to make money, right?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4472
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A No.

2 Q You were running it to sell something?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q So that you could make a living doing something,

5 right?

6 A No, sir.

7 Q You're telling me you were doing this, you know, in a

8 charitable goodwilled nature, is that it?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q You were doing it to make money, right?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q Did you make money?

13 A No, sir.

14 Q Did you save money on postage, sir?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q How much money would you say you saved on postage?

17 A I don't know.

18 Q By mailings?

19 A I don't know.

20 Q You were the one that submitted the false application

21 to obtain the special bulk rate on the mailing, right?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Your wife didn't do that, did she?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q And this is a felony also; is that correct?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4473
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A That's correct.

2 Q So these were the six counts that were in that

3 information that you pled guilty to, correct?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q And that count carried a five-year sentence as well?

6 A I don't think so. It may have. My recollection is I

7 don't think so.

8 Q What is your recollection as to what that count

9 carried?

10 A I don't have a clear recollecti on. I believe it was

11 preguidelines. I believe it was the lesser amount but I'm

12 not sure.

13 Q The guidelines were in November of 1987?

14 A I guess so.

15 Q Are you aware of that?

16 A Not firsthand, no.

17 Q But you understand the guidelines, correct?

18 A In a general sense.

19 Q Did your lawyer advise you that when you pled guilty

20 to these felonies, the six of them, that you could be

21 sentenced consecutively?

22 You know what I mean by consecutively?

23 A I don't think that was in our agreement to be
24 consecutive.
25 Q Right.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4474
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 But without that agreement you could have been

2 sentenced on these pleas consecutively, you understand

3 that?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q When I say consecutively, that means you could get a

6 separate sentence on each one of these counts and have to

7 do the first sentence first and when that is done you do

8 the next sentence, right?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q And the government, as part of your cooperation

11 agreement, agreed that you would be sentenced concurrently

12 on these counts; am I right?

13 A That's correct.

14 MR. JENKS: At this time I'm going to offer

15 3500-22-D, which is the information.

16 THE COURT: Why don't you put a letter on it.

17 MR. JENKS: Your Honor, I'll offer it as

18 Defendant's Exhibit AK in evidence.

19 THE COURT: Any objection?

20 MR. WHITE: No, Your Honor.

21 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit AK, Able King, in

22 evidence.

23 (Defendant's Exhibit AK received in evidence.)
24 BY MR. JENKS:
25 Q Now, Mr. Watstein, I touched on this before and I'm

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4475
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 coming back to this now.

2 You are running Seminar Industries of America?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Which is a business consultant?

5 A And seminars, yes.

6 Q And you are doing that in Florida, sir?

7 A And New York.

8 Q How many people work for you?

9 A Three.

10 Q And they are employees of yours?

11 A Two are employees, one is an independent contractor.

12 Q And you pay them a salary, correct?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q And would it be fair to say that you do consulting,

15 business consulting or marketing strategies for various

16 corporations?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q You do it for Core States Bank which you said in

19 Philadelphia?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And Just Great Coffee?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q Is that a franchise?
24 A No.
25 Q Just another company?



OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4476
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Yes.

2 Q And Larry Tucker, Inc.?

3 A Yes.

4 Q What is that?

5 A A company involved in the doing of cooperative direct

6 mailings which 20 or more companies provide offers in the

7 same envelope.

8 Q I see.

9 So what you are doing, you are participating in

10 consulting people on how to do mailings for business

11 purposes?

12 A Yes, sir. To a minor extent, yes.

13 Q And that's exactly what you pled guilty to, right,

14 fraudulent mailings, mail fraud?

15 A It is correct, that is what I pled guilty to. It's

16 not what I'm advising them to do.

17 Q But you are teaching them how to use the mails?

18 A As a minor extent what I do, yes.

19 Q Did you advise these three companies and any other

20 people that you worked for that you have been convicted of

21 six federal felonies in the United States federal court?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And you went in there and told them, you told Core
24 States Bank in Philadelphia that you pled guilty to six
25 felonies before Judge Mishler back in 1993?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4477
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Two of the three companies I have told in answer to

2 your question.

3 Q And they are aware that you are a convicted felon on

4 six counts?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q For mail fraud?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q And for mail fraud while you were running a business?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q And you are doing business consulting for a bank like

11 Core States Bank with the knowledge that they knew you are

12 convicted of the felony?

13 A Two of the three.

14 Q Who doesn't?

15 A Core States Bank .

16 Q You wouldn't tell them because you wouldn't be doing

17 any work for them?

18 A That's not the point, sir.

19 Q Does Core States Bank know you've been convicted of

20 six federal felonies in front of Judge Mishler?

21 A No, sir.

22 Q Does Core States Bank know that you are sitting here

23 on the witness stand convicted as a federal felon on a
24 criminal trial?
25 A No, sir.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4478
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q Does Core States Bank know that you got three months

2 probation and six months worth of home detention for all

3 the crimes you committed from 1984 to 1992 up until when

4 you got arrested?

5 A No, sir.

6 Q If Core States Bank knew you wouldn't be working for

7 Core States Bank, right?

8 A I don't know the answer to that question.

9 Q You certainly wou ldn't go and volunteer, right?

10 Would you like me to go up and call them up and

11 tell them?

12 A No, I wouldn't.

13 Q Did you tell Just Great Coffee that you are a

14 convicted felon?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q Do they know you are sitting here in the United

17 States federal court?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q You are on probation while you are here?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q You got probation in August of 1995?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And your probation doesn't run out until August of
24 1998?
25 A Doesn't expire.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4479
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q Doesn't expire.

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q Nobody cuts you loose on probation?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q The government, you know, has the power to terminate

6 you or ask that you be terminated early from probation,

7 ri ght?

8 MR. WHITE: Objection.

9 THE COURT: Well, overruled.

10 The amended question I'll allow, not the original

11 question because you don't have the power to do that. Not

12 yet, Mr. White. It may come, but I thought that's what

13 the judge does.

14 What are we here for, I wonder.

15 Go ahead.

16 BY MR. JENKS:

17 Q Do you know that the government has the power to ask

18 the federal judge to terminate you from probation?

19 A I'm aware of that concept, yes.

20 Q But you are on until August of 1998, correct?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q And you told us on your direct examination that if

23 you told -- withdrawn.
24 You told us that if you lie here Mr. White could
25 prosecute you for perjury, right?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4480
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And you could al so have your probation violated,

3 right?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q When you say if you lie, the arbiter or the person

6 who judges whether or not you lied in your testimony is

7 Mr. White?

8 A I'm not sure, sir.

9 Q Well, do I have the power to violate your probation?

10 A No, sir.

11 Q Do any of these people sitting over here have the

12 power to violate your probation?

13 A No, sir.

14 Q Do you think the jury could violate your probation?

15 A No, sir.

16 Q So would it be a fair statement to say that the only

17 person that you have to please with your testimony so your

18 probation is not violated is the United States Government?

19 A I don't think so, no.

20 Q If the United States Government is not happy with

21 your testimony, is it not a fact that they could violate

22 your probation?

23 A No, sir.
24 Q It's not a f act?
25 A If they're not happy.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4481
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q You know the only way they'll not be happy with your

2 testimony is if you got in here and said that your company

3 was totally fraudulent and Mr. Gordon ran a professional

4 operation, right?

5 A I don't agree with that statement, no.

6 Q Well, let's do this then.

7 You founded Who's Who in U.S. Executives in 1988?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q And it ran through 1991?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q And you've had companies, offices in Queens and Long

12 Island, right?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And in Queens your offices were on Queens Boulevard,

15 correct?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And on Long Island they were on Cuttermill Road in

18 Great Neck?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q And you were the author of the letter telling people

21 that Thorton Rockefeller and Harlan Carnegie were

22 mechanics of your selection committee, right?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q And that was of course untrue, right?
25 A As previously testified, yes, sir.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4482
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q And you had no selection committee at all, right?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q And half of the names that you used were made up, am

4 I right, like Thorton Rockefeller and Harlan Carnegie.

5 Did you use any other names?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Did you use names of any other prominent people to

8 tell potential customers that they were on your selection

9 committee?

10 A We used other names. I don't have a recollection of

11 what the names were though.

12 Q As you sit here you don't know what the other names

13 were?

14 A That's correct.

15 Q But they were names that someone would easily be able

16 to identify, right?

17 A Not necessarily.

18 Q Did you cold call customers?

19 A No.

20 Q Your company never picked up a phone and cold called

21 a person?

22 A I can't answer that with a yes or no.

23 Q Each sales manager -- did you have sales managers in
24 your company?
25 A Yes, sir.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4483
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q And you had sales people?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And did they work strictly on a commission basis?

4 A No.

5 Q Did you pay them a salary as well?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And then they got a commission of a percentage of

8 whatever they sold?

9 A Yes.

10 Q In 1989, your company published a directory, right?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q And that was the first directory the company

13 publis hed, correct?

14 A That's correct.

15 Q And would it be fair to say between 1989 and 1990,

16 you solicited close to a half a million people from

17 mailing lists?

18 A Yes.

19 Q You did all the mailings?

20 A Myself personally?

21 Q Your company.

22 A We contracted the function out but we were

23 responsible for mailings.
24 Q And you received back approximately 75,000 cards or
25 people that were interested?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4484
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A That sounds a bit high but that is approximately

2 correct.

3 Q 70,000 or 60,000?

4 A Slightly less than 75,000.

5 Q And you collected payments from about half of these

6 people?

7 A I don't have that number.

8 Q Did you have 50,000 people, 40,000 people?

9 A I don't want to hazard a guess.

10 Q No w, in 1990, you published a second directory; am I

11 correct?

12 A Yes, more than one.

13 Q A second directory in Who's Who in U.S. Executives in

14 1990?

15 A Yes.

16 Q That was the second directory, right?

17 A Yes.

18 Q That directory only had about 5,000 names in it,

19 right?

20 A That's inaccurate.

21 Q How many names did that directory have?

22 A It was greater than 5,000.

23 Q 7,000?
24 A I believe 10 to 15,000, I'm not quite sure.
25 Q All right, 10 to 15,000.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4485
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 It didn't have as many members in that directory

2 as this directory does, does it?

3 Take a look at this one.

4 A I can't tell, but I would assume we had about half as

5 many by the pure, physical weight and size of the book.

6 Q According to you, you may have published a directory

7 with more than 7,000 people?

8 A No, sir.

9 Q How many, 10 to 15,000?

10 A Of that directory -- we published a number of

11 directories, not just that one directory in 1990.

12 Q Who's Who of Executive?

13 A Yes.

14 Q How many directories did you publish in 1990?

15 A We published I believe six or seven all together.

16 Q Six or seven directories?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Do you know the types of the directories as you sit

19 here?

20 A To the best of my recollection, yes.

21 Q Tell me.

22 A Who's Who in Practicing Attorneys.

23 Q You published that directory?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q How many people did you have in that directory?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4486
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Five to 10,000, I believe.

2 Q Okay.

3 A And I 'm just guessing off the numbers.

4 Q Just guessing.

5 A Who's Who in the Computer Industry.

6 Q How many people did you have in that directory?

7 A Five to 7,000.

8 We published Who's Who in Real Estate. Who's Who

9 in Law Enforcement.

10 And your question, please?

11 Q How many were in the Who's Who in Real Estate

12 directory?

13 A I think around 5,000, but I'm not quite sure.

14 Q Okay.

15 And Who's Who in Law Enforcement?

16 A I think around 5,000.

17 Q And would I be correct, sir, in stating that you

18 didn't list in the directories a large number of people

19 who would purchase memberships that were entitled to be

20 included in the book, right?

21 A Yes.

22 Q I mean, your place was so negligent that you actually

23 took money from people and then they didn't get listed in
24 the registry at all, right?
25 A No, I don't agree with the statement you just made.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4487
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q Well, is it fair to say that a large number of people

2 that paid for memberships did not get included in the

3 directory?

4 A I think so, yes.

5 Q And that was because of negligence, correct?

6 A No, sir.

7 Q Were you aware that a sampling by American Express of

8 91 people who paid for your registry by their credit card

9 demonstrated that only one of those people was listed in

10 your registry?

11 A No, I was not aware of that, sir.

12 Q How many complaints did your company have with the

13 Better Business Bureau, sir?

14 A I don't know the answer to that question, sir.

15 Q 500?

16 A I think it was a little less than that.

17 Q So from 1988 to 1991, three year periods, right, '89,

1 8 '90, '91, okay, you had almost 500 complaints at the

19 Better Business Bureau?

20 A I think slightly less than that, but the answer is

21 yes.

22 Q When you say slightly less, 50 less?

23 A Maybe a hundred less. I don't want to guess, sir.
24 Q You are not aware as you sit here today that 91
25 people paid you by an American Express card at one point

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4488
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 and only one of them was put in the registry?

2 A I had no awareness of that information, sir.

3 Q Would it be fair to say that you never even published

4 a directory of Who's Who in the computer industry?

5 A No, sir.

6 Q You did publish a directory?

7 A To the best of my recollection, yes.

8 Q How many people were in that?

9 A I just previously answered your question, sir.

10 Q I'm sorry to inconven ience you, maybe you can answer

11 it again.

12 A About 5,000, sir.

13 Q How many were practicing attorneys?

14 A I guess between 5 and 7,000.

15 Q And you also failed to ship the directories to many

16 customers who paid for membership; am I right?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q Numerous customers actually physically paid for the

19 registry -- withdrawn. Paid for the registry and didn't

20 get the shipment; am I right?

21 A Could you define "numerous" for me, please?

22 Q Well, -- withdrawn.

23 Would it be a fair statement to say that
24 thousands of people paid for that registry -- withdrawn.
25 You had no policy of split billing?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4489
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A That's correct.

2 Q In other words, when you sold a person an application

3 or a membership in your directory, r ight, a spot in your

4 directory, you took the full money from them up front,

5 right?

6 A We didn't sell people a spot in the directory, sir.

7 Q You sold them a directory, right?

8 A That's correct.

9 Q You sold them their name in a book, right?

10 A No, sir, we sold them a directory.

11 Q You sold them a directory with their name in it,

12 right?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q If you remembered to include their name in the

15 directory, right, that's the first thing?

16 A Remember has nothing to do with it.

17 Q Did you know that Mr. Gordon's companies, Who's Who

18 Worldwide and Sterling Who's Who, included everyone in the

19 registry who paid for a membership?

20 A I have no firsthand knowledge of that, sir.

21 Q Mr. Gordon was a competitor of yours, right?

22 A That is correct.

23 Q There's no great love, as you sit here, between you

24 and Mr. Gordon; am I right?
25 A I can't respond to that question.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4490
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q Well, you testified on your direct examination you

2 had several telephone calls with Mr. Gordon, correct?

3 A I had two telephone calls with Mr. Gordon.

4 Q And you were upset that Gordon had the temerity to

5 establish yet another Who's Who; am I right?

6 A Maybe years ago, that's correct.

7 Q Back in 1990 or back in 1989?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q You didn't have exclusive use of the name Who's Who?

10 A That's correct.

11 Q In fact, no one has exclusive use of the name of

12 Who's Who?

13 A That's my understanding.

14 Q And you told Gordon that you were going to hire a

15 lawyer to institute a suit against him for stealing what

16 you felt was your concept, Who's Who, right?

17 A No, my materials, not my concept.

18 Q Well, Gordon was trying to create a company that

19 would be a competitor of Marquis Who's Who and your

20 company, right?

21 A That statement is correct.

22 Q And let's talk a little bit about customer

23 complaints.
24 You had a lot of people who were customers that
25 were complaining to your organization while it was

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4491
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 running; am I right?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q You were getting complaints every day, correct?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q Not only were you getting complaints, but you were

6 getting numerous requests for refunds, right?

7 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no. I can

8 put a time line on it, though, if you would like.

9 Q Tell us, let me ask you this question specifically.

10 Were you getting customer complaints?

11 A Ever?

12 Q Yes.

13 A Yes.

14 Q And that was after you took over the publication of

15 your registry, right?

16 A I don't understand your question.

17 Q You had said for the first year of the corporation,

18 you had given the work out to someone else?

19 A That's correct.

20 Q And then you took over the work, right?

21 A Yes, we had no complaints while it was being

22 published in an out source mode.

23 Q By someone else?
24 A We published it, they did the data entry work, that's
25 correct.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4492
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q You had no complaints what someone else was doing?

2 A During the data entry work.

3 Q When your company took it over then you had numerous

4 complaints?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And would it be fair to say you had numerous people

7 asking for refunds?

8 A Could you define "numerous" for me, please?

9 Q Well, more than 100?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q More than 500?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q More than 1,000?

14 A In that range, yes, sir.

15 Q So you gotten or 15,000 people that you put into a

16 book and 1,000 of them are complaining and asking for

17 refunds, is that a fair --

18 A Those numbers aren't accurate.

19 Q They are not accurate?

20 A No, sir.

21 Q At least 1,000 people are asking for refunds from

22 you?

23 A Yes, out of 50 or 60,000, yes, sir.
24 Q Yes.
25 Well, wait a minute, out of 50 or 60,000.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4493
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Out of 10 or 15,000 that went into the registry

2 Who's Who in U.S. Executives?

3 A No, sir.

4 Q A re you aware that Mr. Gordon's company had very few

5 complaints sent to the company?

6 A I have no awareness how many complaints Mr. Gordon's

7 company had.

8 Q Were you aware what Who's Who World Wide and Sterling

9 Who's Who immediately gave refunds to customers that were

10 not satisfied?

11 A I have no awareness of Mr. Gordon's procedures.

12 Q Now, with respect to the issue of refunds, did you

13 actually pay employees commissions for every refund an

14 employee could avoid giving to a customer?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q In other words, this wasn't -- you coin the term

17 aggressive sales practices?

18 A I didn't coin it, I used the phrase.

19 Q That's the phrase you used on your direct

20 examination?

21 A Yes.

22 Q You actually rewarded monetarily every employee who

23 could avoid giving a refund to a disgruntled customer?
24 Yes or no?
25 A Yes, sir.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4494
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q So if someone called for a refund, your policy at

2 your company was to try to get somebody to talk them out

3 of the refund, right?

4 A For a brief period of time, yes, sir.

5 Q Was that the policy?

6 Yes or no?

7 A For a period of time, yes, sir.

8 Q And if that employee succeeded in doing that then

9 that employee made some money, right?

10 A In some cases, yes.

11 Q So they would be able to save you money, right?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q And did you tell potential customers and have your

14 salespeople tell potential customers that their refund was

15 delayed because you were in litigation with American

16 Express?

17 A Yes.

18 Q You weren't in any litigation with American Express,

19 were you?

20 A We threatened litigation with American Express.

21 Q Your merchant charge accounts with American Express

22 was shut down by American Express; is that correct?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q And they were shut down by American Express because
25 of the numerous refunds and complaints and everything else

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4495
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 that was going on at your company, right?

2 A I'm sure that was a contributing factor, yes.

3 Q The merchant charge accounts, we've heard testimony

4 in this trial about merchant charge accounts?

5 A I've not been privy to the testimony.

6 Q Withdrawn.

7 Assume we've heard testimony about merchant

8 charge accounts in this trial, your merchant charge

9 account with American Express was shut down by American

10 Express?

11 A That's correct.

12 Q Ame rican Express didn't want to deal with you

13 anymore, right?

14 A The answer to that question is yes.

15 Q Do you know as you sit here whether or not up until

16 March 30, 1995, the day Gordon's company was closed,

17 whether or not American Express shut down his merchant

18 charge accounts?

19 A I have no firsthand knowledge of that, sir.

20 Q Would it be fair to say one of the reasons that

21 American Express shut down your merchant charge accounts

22 is because of the number of people filing complaints with

23 American Express about your business practices?
24 A I think that's a fair statement, yes.
25 Q That's a fair statement?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4496
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Yes.

2 Q People were calling American Express and saying you

3 were charging things on their credit cards without

4 a uthorization?

5 A No, sir, that did not happen in a significant number

6 of cases.

7 Q Now, you had salespeople telling customers that you

8 were in litigation with American Express?

9 A We threatened litigation with American Express.

10 Q You weren't in any litigation with American Express?

11 A We threatened.

12 Q Were you in any litigation, yes or no? I don't care

13 what you threatened.

14 A Not in the active stage of litigation, no, sir.

15 Q Did you have your salespeople telling customers that

16 the reason they weren't getting timely refunds or that the

17 charges were not canceled from their American Express card

18 is because your company was in litigation with American

19 Express?

20 A Not to the best of my recollection. That was not the

21 phrase that we used.

22 Q You told customers that your company was fighting

23 with American Express?
24 A That's correct, sir.
25 Q There was nothing to fight. American Express didn't

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4497
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 simply want you anymore.

2 A That's an incorrect statement, sir.

3 Q All right.

4 Did you tell potential customers that you

5 couldn't refund their credit card because you had an

6 internal computer problem?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q Do you remember that?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q You didn't have any internal computer problem, right?

11 A We absolutely did.

12 Q That was just a delay tactic designed to keep the

13 peoples' money longer than you had to, right?

14 A Absolutely not, sir.

15 Q You are sure about that, Mr. Watstein?

16 A Absolutely.

17 Q You understand you are under oath?

18 A Absolutely.

19 Q You know your nose is growing, si r?

20 MR. WHITE: Objection.

21 THE COURT: Sustained. Strike that out. The

22 jury is instructed to disregard that.

23 Mr. Jenks, no more of that, please.
24 BY MR. JENKS:
25 Q Sir, you instructed your employees to lie that a

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4498
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 plaque was already engraved within 24 hours of their

2 calling up so they don't get a refund?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q Did you know that when you were sentenced in front of

5 Judge Mishler in July of 1995, Donald Fletcher had faxed a

6 letter to Judge Mishler?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q You were there, you heard it?

9 A Yes.

10 Q The Judge discussed that letter on the record, didn't

11 he?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And you were right there in the sentence in the

14 courtroom, weren't you?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q You know Donald Fletcher was one of your salespeople?

17 A Sales managers.

18 Q Sales managers?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Did you know that he told Judge Mishler that you were

21 one of the biggest liars on the face of the earth?

22 A I was privy to that.

23 Q And Donald Fletcher wasn't the only employee of yours
24 that went to Judge Mishler and said you were one of the
25 biggest liars?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4499
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A I'm not sure what he told to Judge Mishler.

2 Q Other people had contacted Judge Mishler that worked

3 for you?

4 A I had no awareness of that.

5 Q When you were sentenced there were other employees in

6 the courtroom waiting to see what happened to you, right?

7 A No, sir.

8 Q You turned on your own employees and you agreed to

9 cooperate and testify agains t them at a trial, right?

10 A The answer to your last question is yes, sir.

11 Q So you devised a scheme to defraud people; am I

12 right? You devised a scheme?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q And then you cooperate with the government to testify

15 against those that you have implemented; am I right?

16 A That's correct, sir.

17 Q Sir, did you instruct your employees to lie that the

18 plaque was already engraved so they couldn't get a refund?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q The fact was that the plaque hadn't even been ordered

21 within taking the credit card and taking the information?

22 A That was true in some cases and untrue in others. In

23 most cases, 50-50 I would say.
24 Q You also told your employees to lie that the registry
25 had already gone to print when it hadn't, right, so that

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4500
Watstein-cros s/Jenks


1 you could avoid giving refunds?

2 A I didn't have a recollection of that particular

3 statement.

4 Q Do you know Mr. Gordon didn't tell his employees to

5 lie that the plaque was already been engraved, did you

6 know that?

7 A I'm not privy to Mr. Gordon's business.

8 Q Well, you are hear testifying against Mr. Gordon and

9 the rest of these people?

10 A Only to what I know firsthand, sir.

11 Q You don't know anything firsthand because you didn't

12 work inside of Who's Who World Wide and Sterling Who's

13 Who?

14 A I do have some firsthand knowledge of the company.

15 Q The only thing you did was call up on the phone and

16 lie about who you were and ask pinpointed questions at the

17 behest of the government trying to get people involved in

18 criminal conduct to save yourself, that's what you did,

19 right?

20 A I can't answer that question, sir. If you can

21 rephrase it.

22 Q Well, you know what I'm talking about don't you,

23 Mr. West? You are a pretty bright guy.
24 A I know what you are trying to say. If you say it
25 more clearly I'll respond to it.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4501
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q But you know what I mean?

2 A If you will rephrase it I'll be sure to know what you

3 mean.

4 Q Okay.

5 Is it not a fact that you would have your

6 employees virtually say almost anything to a customer to

7 avoid giving a refund, is that a fact?

8 A No, that's too aggressive a statement.

9 Q Well, your policy was no giving money back, that was

10 your policy, right?

11 A That's inaccurate also.

12 Q And, sir, I want to talk to you about some of the

13 differences between Mr. Gordon's company and yo ur company,

14 all right?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q You never provided members with any form of a member

17 magazine doing profiles of members, did you?

18 A Not doing profiles of members, no.

19 Q You were selling junk in your magazine, right, like

20 trips to the moon?

21 A I wouldn't call it junk, sir.

22 Q Weren't you selling limousines and jets and trips to

23 the moon?
24 A Sir, it was a magazine of a catalogue, it was not
25 junk.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4502
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q Right. To sell things. You were selling things,

2 right?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q The way a mail-order company would sell things,

5 correct?

6 A A catalogue company, yes, sir.

7 Q Take a look at these things, Defendant's Exhibit

8 Gordon's C, Gordon's F, Gordon's G, Gordon's H (handing.)

9 Your company never published a magazine for

10 distribution to its members, did it?

11 A Not in this format, no, sir.

12 Q Your company never profiled any individual members,

13 did it?

14 A No, sir.

15 Q Your company didn't send quarterly magazines to its

16 members, did it?

17 A Sent a newsletter out.

18 Q But you didn't send quarterly magazines out to its

19 members offering various things?

20 A No.

21 Q Your company didn't offer a no cost credit card with

22 a company logo embossed on it?

23 A No, sir.
24 Q Your company didn't provide a membership package of
25 benefits that included Airborne Express discount, did it?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4503
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Probably other benefits, but no is your answer to the

2 question.

3 Q Didn't do that?

4 A Yes, si r.

5 Q Your company didn't do any phone discounts, did it,

6 to individual members?

7 A No one expressed an interest in that.

8 Q Or travel and auto discounts?

9 A No.

10 Q You didn't offer a CD ROM?

11 A CD ROMs weren't in use at that time, sir.

12 Q So you didn't have one of them.

13 Your company didn't establish any meeting place

14 where members could go and meet if they so chose, did

15 they?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q You didn't have any computer software of any sort

18 that would facilitate your members networking with any

19 other members?

20 A Not in that mode of networking, no.

21 Q No mode of networking ever existed?

22 A No.

23 Q That's not a fair statement?
24 A No.
25 Q Did you hold any networking cocktail parties?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4504
Watstein-cross /Jenks


1 A No, sir.

2 Q Did you plan any seminars or trips for members to

3 sign up and go to?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q You did?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q And where did you do that, sir?

8 A We scheduled one, I believe, it was in Long Island.

9 No one expressed an interest in that. It was cancelled.

10 Q Because everyone was cancelling their memberships in

11 your company?

12 A No, not responsive to what I'm saying.

13 Q Your company did not provide anywhere near the

14 benefits to a member at Who's Who World Wide provided; is

15 that right?

16 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no.

17 Q When a member, when a person became a member in your

18 company, you sold them a plaque; am I correct?

19 A Among other things, yes, sir.

20 Q They had to pay for a plaque, right?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q In other words, that plaque was n't included in a fee

23 to become a member?
24 A There was no fee for becoming a member.
25 Q But they had to buy a plaque, right?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4505
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A No.

2 Q You sold the plaque -- did you send a plaque to the

3 members?

4 A If they purchased the plaque.

5 Q They had to buy a plaque, right, they had to pay for

6 it?

7 A One could be included in the directory without having

8 to purchase a plaque.

9 Q But if they wanted a plaque they had to pay for it?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And they had to pay separately for the directory?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q And anything else they wanted from your company they

14 had to pay separately for, is that so?

15 A No, sir.

16 Q Sir, there came a time in, I guess, 1990 that a

17 search warrant was executed at your G reat Neck offices; is

18 that correct?

19 A Cuttermill Road.

20 Q Cuttermill Road?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And a search warrant again was executed -- the search

23 warrant in June of 1990 of the Cuttermill offices, the
24 government took a lot of documents, right?
25 A That's correct.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4506
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q They took all your documents out, correct?

2 A Not all, sir, no.

3 Q They took a lot of documents from you, right?

4 A Yes.

5 Q You had them in your garage somewhere in Great Neck?

6 A No.

7 Q Did you have a storage facility where the documents

8 were?

9 A No.

10 Q Did they go to a storage facility?

11 A Not in that search, sir.

12 Q All right.

13 In one of the other searches?

14 A Subsequent search, yes.

15 Q Was Inspector Biegelman the person that executed the

16 search warrant in 1990, June of 1990 at your Great Neck

17 premises?

18 A He was present.

19 Q He was there, right?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q You didn't stop operations after he executed that

22 search warrant, did you?

23 A No, sir.
24 Q You kept running the company, right?
25 A That's correct.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4507
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q And you didn't change any of your sales policies or

2 anything else, correct?

3 A Absolutely incorrect, sir.

4 Q You did change?

5 A Absolutely.

6 Q But they came back again?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q In July of 1991.

9 A That's correct.

10 Q And at that time they went to your residence; am I

11 correct?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q And they seized yet more documents?

1 4 A That's correct.

15 Q And that was when you were living in the North Shore

16 Towers?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Of course your new house wasn't built yet?

19 A Yes.

20 Q But it was getting built?

21 A Yes.

22 Q It was going up, right?

23 A Yes.
24 Q How much money did you spend while we're talking
25 about the house, towards the construction?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4508
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Several hundred thousand. I don't have the exact

2 amount.

3 Q Well, was the frame up?

4 A The frame was up, yes.

5 Q The roof was on?

6 A Substantially, yes.

7 Q Building an indoor pool?

8 A Not finished, but that's correct.

9 Q You were putting an indoor pool in the house,

10 correct?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q Now, in July of 1991, a year after the first search

13 warrant, the government comes this time to you at your

14 North Shore Tower apartment?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Where you were the beneficial owner.

17 A That's correct.

18 Q That whole year June of 1990 through July of 1991,

19 you hadn't ceased operations, correct?

20 A We had not ceased operations, that's correct.

21 Q How many locations were you running at that time?

22 A Two.

23 Q By that time American Express had cancelled your
24 merchant charge account, correct?
25 A I believe that's correct, yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4509
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q And so many people were complaining to the Better

2 Business Bureau and the government about your sales

3 practices at that time, right?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q Now, there came a time the government yet sought and

6 executed another search war rant, a third one; is that

7 correct?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And they executed that at the Mill Neck house you

10 were building?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And that was a month after August of 1991?

13 A Approximately, yes.

14 Q And finally in May of 1992 you were arrested by the

15 postal authorities, right?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q Your wife was arrested as well that day?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q And what day were you arrested? Do you remember?

20 A May of 1992, if I recall the exact day.

21 Q But you and your wife were arrested the same day?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And you were arrested in Florida; am I right?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q And they brought you up here and you entered a plea

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4510
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 of not guilty to a judge; am I right?

2 A That's correct. -- Actua lly, that is correct, yes.

3 Q So in May of 1992 you get arrested and get charged

4 with all of these things in a complaint as well as your

5 wife, right?

6 A Separate than I was.

7 Q She was charged with similar things as you were?

8 A No, sir.

9 Q What was she charged with?

10 A Charged with at that arrest level with the creation

11 of an improper mortgage application, nothing else at that

12 time.

13 Q At that time?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q But later on when she pled guilty with you in March

16 of 1993, she pled guilty to other things?

17 A Yes.

18 Q She pled guilty to what other things?

19 A Conspiracy in the tax evasion and closing her eyes to

20 me completing improper receipts.

21 Q On the limousine company?

22 A Yes.

23 Q So she pled to that as well and pled to the
24 conspiracy?
25 A That's correct.



OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4511
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q And she pled to filing an improper mortgage

2 application with Key Bank, correct?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q And that improper mortgage application concerned the

5 building of that house in Mill Neck?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q And you and she told the bank, Key Bank, that you

8 were separated and divorced, right?

9 A The mortgage application stated that.

10 Q And you told her that -- you told the bank that she

11 was president of some direct marketing corporation like

12 since seven or eight or nine years ago?

13 A The application stated that, sir.

14 Q That was bogus, right?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q She was not the president of any direct marketing

17 consortium, seven, eight, nine years?

18 A She was, but the number of years was exaggerated.

19 Q You made it nine years when you just created the

20 corporation right before you went to apply for the

21 mortgage application?

22 A No, it's not correct.

23 Q But you created the corporation in an effort to file
24 the application for the mortgage; am I right?
25 A No, sir.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4512
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q You lied on the mortgage application with your wife,

2 right?

3 A I wasn't a party to the mortgage application, but I

4 caused it to be created.

5 Q Well, you coached her?

6 A She actually did not participate in that application.

7 Q You were behind the application?

8 A Absolutely. I was responsible.

9 Q So therefore, it seems like whenever it suits your

10 need to lie, you lie, right?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q If there's a benefit in it for you, you lie?

13 A No, sir.

14 Q Well, everything that you've just testified about

15 here for the last hour and an hour this morning, anytime

16 you do something it is for you to get a better benefit,

17 right?

18 A It's in a finite period of time which I testified

19 for, not the current period of time.

20 Q In the period of time since at least 1984 when you

21 filed your not-for-profit corporation, all the way up

22 until May of 1992 when she came and got you?

23 A 1991, sir.
24 Q They arrested you in May of 1992?
25 A The company was not in existence from July of 1991

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4513
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 until forward.

2 Q 1991.

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q So you had a seven year run from '84 to '91 of doing

5 whatever you wanted to do in business, right?

6 A And seven years subsequently doing things p roperly.

7 MR. SCHOER: Objection. Move for it to be

8 stricken.

9 THE COURT: Objection sustained. Disregard the

10 last part of the answer.

11 BY MR. JENKS:

12 Q Would it be fair to say that if the government had

13 not arrested you in May of 1992, you would have still been

14 committing crimes?

15 A No, sir.

16 Q You would have repented and healed yourself in May of

17 1992?

18 A Sooner than that, sir.

19 Q Sooner?

20 A Prior to that.

21 Q When, 1994 or 1993?

22 A In May of 1990, the materials for Who's Who in U.S.

23 Executives were altered and changed and from the period of
24 May going forward I believe that company conformed to all
25 the lawyers properly. Prior to that, the crimes I pled

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4514
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 guilty to were in fact crimes.

2 Q Well, the government didn't see it to your way?

3 A I don't think it was a discussion on the time line

4 whether it was 1990 or '91.

5 Q Because the information charges conduct from July of

6 1988 through and inclusive July of 1991?

7 A That's correct, that's what the information says.

8 Q Is the information inaccurate?

9 A I can't answer that question yes or no, sir.

10 Q Well, you pled guilty to a conspiracy to commit mail

11 and wire fraud for conduct that you entered into between

12 July of 1988 and July 31, 1991, right?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q So obviously the government didn't see it that you

15 cleaned yourself up in May of 1990 like you would like to

16 convince us, right?

17 A That wasn't the subject of discussion with the

18 government.

19 Q Now, sir, when you got arrested 25 people in your

20 company were arrested, right?

21 A Approximately, yes, sir.

22 Q And they were all charged with you in the same

23 complaint, right?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q And you were the CEO of the company, right?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4515
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And it didn't take you long after you were arrested

3 to decide that it was in your interest to cooperate with

4 the government, correct?

5 A It took a quarter of a year.

6 Q It didn't take a quarter of a year, Mr. West. You

7 were arrested in May, right?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q And you started to cooperate July 3, 1992?

10 A Sixty days, excuse me, sir.

11 Q It took months?

12 A Two months, not three months, you're right.

13 Q July 3rd?

14 A Yes.

15 Q When were you arrested in May, sir?

16 A I don't recall. Was it May 7th?

17 Q So wi thin less than two months you were already

18 deciding to cooperate with the government?

19 A That is accurate, sir.

20 Q And you struck a deal. July 3, 1992 was the first

21 time you proffered with the United States Government?

22 A Approximately, yes, sir.

23 Q Well, let's not approximate. Let's make sure.
24 I'm going to show you what has been marked
25 Government's Exhibit 3500-22-A. Take a look at that.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4516
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A That is correct, July 1st is the correct date.

2 Q That's the first time you met with the government to

3 cooperate?

4 A To the best of my recollection.

5 Q Then you met with the government again, take a look

6 at 3500-22-B.

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q Well, let's talk about this now.

9 The complaint, do you know that the complaint in

10 your ca se is dated May 19, 1992?

11 A That sounds accurate.

12 Q So May 20, 1992, would that be a fair statement that

13 you and your wife were arrested in Florida?

14 A It might be accurate, yes, I'm sure.

15 Q Then you came up here?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q So it wasn't 60 days, it was like a month and a

18 couple weeks?

19 A 45 days, yes, sir.

20 Q And you went in right away and you began to cooperate

21 with the government, right?

22 A If right away is defined as 45 days, yes, sir.

23 Q And your employees, they were arrested with you,
24 correct?
25 A Yes, sir.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4517
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q And you agreed to show the kind of person you are,

2 you agreed when you cooperated with the government on July

3 3, 1992, that you were going to throw your employees to

4 th e dogs, right?

5 A That's not correct, sir.

6 Q You agreed with the government, did you not, to

7 testify against your employees, your sales managers and

8 your salespeople in exchange for leniency for you and your

9 wife, right?

10 A That's not accurate, sir. If I can expand my answer

11 to your question.

12 Q I will not ask you to expand.

13 A The question is not accurate.

14 Q Let me rephrase it.

15 When you went in to cooperate with the government

16 on July 3, 1992, you had to provide truthful, complete and

17 accurate cooperation as part of your deal, right?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q I mean, the government didn't want you unless either

20 you cooperate in total or you don't cooperate at all,

21 right?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q And part of your cooperation in a criminal case when
24 you cooperate with these people is that you have to

25 cooperate in total, right?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4518
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And so part of your cooperation as -- as part of your

3 cooperation, you had to agree to testify against your own

4 employees, right?

5 A Not all the employees, sir.

6 Q Are you telling me that on July 3, 1992 when you

7 first went in there, the government was limiting the names

8 of the employees that you would have to testify against?

9 A The majority had already pled guilty, sir.

10 Q Well, by July 3, 1992, within five weeks the

11 employees pled guilty?

12 A Within seven weeks, yes, sir.

13 Q So it is not a fact, Mr. West, is it?

14 A That's my recollection.

15 Q That's not a fact?

16 A Sir, that's the facts as I recall them.

17 Q You didn't know that, as you sit here, they pled

18 guilty because you were cooperating?

19 A No, sir. Numerous employees had pled guilty before

20 my cooperation.

21 Q Before you signed your cooperation agreement in March

22 of 1993, not before you ran to the government in July of

23 1992?
24 A That wasn't the date of my cooperation agreement,
25 sir.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4519
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q The first proffer agreement you have up there, the

2 first time you met the government was July of 1992, right?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q July 3rd, the day before Independence Day?

5 A That's correct, sir.

6 Q You didn't just think that up on July 3rd to go up

7 there. You decided that in advance, right?

8 A We had -- I discussed that with my attorney about a

9 week in advance that as far as the pluses and minuses of

10 it --

11 Q And --

12 A If I may finish. And the proffer session was to

13 determine whether or not that would materialize as in fact

14 an agreement.

15 Q Well, it did materialize into an agreement, right?

16 A Executed in September of 1992.

17 Q Let's take a look at that.

18 I'm going to show you Government's Exhibit

19 3500-22-C.

20 Is that your cooperation agreement with the

21 government?

22 A (Perusing.) Yes, sir.

23 Q That's your signature on page 10?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Dated September 8, 1992, correct?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4520
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q This is your official cooperation agreement with the

3 United States Government, right?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 MR. JENKS: I'm going to offer this, Judge, as

6 Defendant's Exhibit AL.

7 THE COURT: Any objection?

8 MR. WHI TE: No, Your Honor.

9 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit AL, Able Lion, in

10 evidence.

11 (Defendant's Exhibit AL received in evidence.)

12 BY MR. JENKS:

13 Q Now, sir, first you have your two meetings in July,

14 July 3rd and July 8th?

15 A Umm-hmm.

16 Q And then they give you a cooperation agreement,

17 correct?

18 A In September.

19 Q In September?

20 A Umm-hmm.

21 Q As part of your cooperation agreement, you had to

22 agree to testify against any former employees of yours

23 that decided to go to trial, is that a fair statement?
24 A That is totally correct.
25 Q In fact, you had agreed to testify against Kathy

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4521
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Shikinder, Linda Zeitzer and Martin Gross and Linda

2 Killen.

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q You know all of those pe ople, right?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q You would agree to testify against them, right?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q These are people that worked for you?

9 A Umm-hmm.

10 Q You devised a scheme?

11 A Participated, yes, sir.

12 Q They worked under you?

13 A Yes.

14 Q You told them what to do and tell them --

15 A Not totally.

16 Q You orchestrated the whole thing?

17 A Absolutely.

18 Q And you turned around to save yourself and your wife

19 and make an agreement with the government to come in and

20 testify against these people, right?

21 A That's correct, sir.

22 Q And are you aware that these people, Kathy Shikinder,

23 are you aware that she was at your sentence to see what
24 you got?
25 A That is not fair to say, to the best of my

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4522
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 recollection.

2 Q Did you notice her there?

3 A I didn't notice her.

4 Q Who was there from your business who went to see what

5 you got?

6 A The only one I saw was Martin Gross and Donald

7 Fletcher.

8 Q And Donald Fletcher?

9 A Fletcher.

10 Q He was one of your sales manager?

11 A Manager.

12 Q He was the one that sent Judge Mishler the letter?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Saying that you were the biggest liar?

15 A Previously said that.

16 Q Are you the biggest liar on the face of the earth?

17 A No, sir.

18 Q Now, let's take a look at your cooperation agreement.

19 Take a look at it. It's in front of you.

20 This agreement at the time you signed it was very

21 important to you; am I right?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q I mean, this agreement was the thing that was going
24 to keep you out of jail; am I right?

25 A It was very important to me, yes, sir.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4523
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q It was real important to you, right, because without

2 it you were doing 70 to 87 months in the can?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q I mean, this agreement was more important to you than

5 money, right?

6 A I can't put that concept. It was certainly very,

7 very important to me.

8 Q Let's see how important it was.

9 When you signed this agreement on September 8,

10 1992, if someone had come along and said "I'll give you a

11 million bucks, tear up your agreement with the

12 government," would you have done it?

13 A I don't think so. I would have thought about it.

14 Q Because what you are all about is money, right?

15 A No, sir.

16 Q Greed?

17 A No, sir.

18 Q That's everything you've done?

19 A No, sir.

20 Q Greed and material things, right?

21 A No, sir.

22 Q This agreement, would it be fair to say, was worth

23 more than a million dollars to you in September of 1992?
24 A I think so.
25 Q Worth more than two million?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4524
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A I can't put numbers on it. It was certainly very

2 important to me.

3 Q Who gave you this agreement?

4 A Who gave me this?

5 Q This agreement to sign?

6 A Seth Marvin, Assistant U.S. Attorney.

7 Q Seth Marvin is an Assistant U.S. Attorney in

8 Brooklyn?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q He at the time was the prosecutor that was in charge

11 of your case when you were arrested along with your 25

12 people, right?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q Have you seen Mr. Marvin while you were waiting here

15 to tes tify here last week?

16 A No.

17 Q Did you see Mr. Marvin here in the courtroom?

18 A No.

19 Q You got this agreement to cooperate, right, and this

20 agreement at that time was worth -- your wife got one

21 also, by the way, right?

22 A Not at that time, sir.

23 Q But she ultimately got one as a result of your
24 cooperation, right?
25 A No, as a result of her own cooperation.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4525
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q But because you were cooperating, your wife had

2 wanted to cooperate as well, correct?

3 A I think that's a fair statement.

4 Q All right.

5 Let's take a look at your agreement with what the

6 government gave you here, okay.

7 This agreement outlines on pages one and two all

8 the things that you would have to plead to, right?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q I t talks about your six count information?

11 A Right.

12 Q And it talks about you waiving indictment, correct?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q You were never indicted in this case, correct?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q In fact, you waived indictment; is that correct?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q And the reason you waived indictment is because by

19 September of 1992, some three months, four months after

20 your arrest, you were already cooperating with the

21 government?

22 A That is not accurate.

23 Q And you would do anything you could while you were
24 cooperating to keep yourself from going to jail?
25 A That is not accurate, sir.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4526
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q Well, sir, how many investigations did you cooperate

2 in over the number of years from September 1992 until July

3 of 1995 when Judge Mishler sentenced you?

4 A A substantial number.

5 Q Ten or 12 investigations, right?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q You were going out of your way to try to get as many

8 people as you possibly could criminally into trouble to

9 save yourself, right?

10 A No, sir.

11 Q Once again, putting your interests above everybody

12 else's interests?

13 A No, sir.

14 Q Once again doing whatever benefits you as opposed to

15 someone else; is that right?

16 A That's not accurate, sir. You can ask it as many

17 times as you want. It's not accurate.

18 Q Take a look at page 2 of your agreement.

19 Page 2 says that Counts 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5, that's

20 the first five counts of your information carry maximum

21 terms of imprisonment of five years, right?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q Minimum terms of imprisonment of zero years, right?
24 A Yes.

25 Q Supervised release term, three years, correct?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4527
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Correct, sir.

2 Q And a maximum fine of 250,000?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q And restitution up to approximately $14,000,000 on

5 Counts 1 and 2?

6 A Right.

7 Q And then you still got your outstanding tax liability

8 out there for $665,000, right?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q And then Count 5, that's the Allstate counts,

11 8,325.97, correct?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q And when you got sentenced from Judge Mishler, this

14 $14,000,000 in restitution, that was reflected of the

15 $14,000,000 in gross sales that your company had, right?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q No one poked $14,000,000 out of the air. The reason

18 that $14,000,000 was put there was because your company

19 grossed $14,000,000 in sales ?

20 A That was approximately accurate, yes.

21 Q Other than making some restitution to some people

22 that filed complaints with the Better Business Bureau on

23 Long Island, did you pay any of this $14,000,000 back as
24 part of your sentence?
25 A I wasn't authorized to or requested to, sir.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4528
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q You didn't have to pay any of the money back, right?

2 A That's correct.

3 Q Now, let's take a look at the agreement and we'll do

4 this slow, okay.

5 A Certainly.

6 Q The agreement on page 3 talks about federal

7 sentencing guidelines.

8 Do you see that?

9 A Which paragraph are you referring to?

10 Q Let's start with paragraph 2A.

11 A 2A starts on the other page, yes.

12 Q You understand, before I ask you questions, about

13 paragraph 2, you understand that when someone pleads

14 guilty or is convicted in a federal criminal case, after

15 1987, that the Judge has to sentence that person under the

16 federal sentencing guidelines. You understand that,

17 right?

18 A In a general sense, yes.

19 Q The federal sentencing guidelines applies to the

20 first five counts of your information, right?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q Now, the federal sentencing guidelines operates, so

23 to speak, as a point system, right?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q You know how that operates?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4529
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A In a general sense.

2 Q In a general sense?

3 A Right.

4 Q Certain points are added for certain conduct and

5 certain points are deducted for other things, right?

6 A Yes.

7 Q It operates like on a point system?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q Let's take a look at paragraph 2A.

10 It says under the sentencing guidelines for

11 Counts 1 and 2, the likely adjusted offense level would be

12 level 29 which includes a 15 level enhancement pursuant to

13 guidelines Section 2F1.1BAP.

14 Do you see that?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q You know that 2F1.1BAP is a loss chart?

17 A Yes.

18 Q You know that is a loss chart?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And that 15 level enhancement comes from the

21 $14,000,000 restitution figure?

22 A That was my understanding, sir.

23 Q That we had talked about, right?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And under Counts 1 and 2, the guideline imprisonment

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4530
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 range that you faced under the first two counts of that

2 information, was 87 to 180 months. Assuming you had no

3 prior convictions, right?

4 A That's what it says, sir.

5 Q So 87 months is what, seven and-a-half years?

6 A Seven and a third years, quarter.

7 Q Something like that, seven and-a-half years, right?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And Counts 3 and 4 that we discussed carried a

10 guideline range of 27 to 33 months.

11 Do you see that?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q And Count 5, the Allstate Insurance Company, carried

14 a guideline range of 6 to 12 months, right?

15 A What paragraph are you on, sir?

16 Q Paragraph 2C.

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q You see that, 6 to 12 months for Count 5?

19 A Umm-hmm.

20 Q And Count 6 was a preguideline count, so there were

21 no guidelines calculations in this agreement because that

22 was 1984, right?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q Prior to the enactment of the sentencing, federal
25 sentencing guidelines?



OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4531
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q Look at 2-D.

3 After all the calculations are said and done, the

4 range of imprisonment that you were facing under all of

5 these pleas was 70 to 87 months; is that right?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q And take a look at page 5, paragraph 4.

8 You see as part of your agreement, right, this

9 cooperation agreement that you signed in September that

10 the government recommended already that Counts 1 and 2

11 served concurrently already with each other. You

12 understand what that means?

13 A Yes.

14 Q That means the sentences merge. When you got two

15 sentences they combine and merge. You wind up doing the

16 longest sentence, right?

17 A I understand.

18 Q And Counts 3 and 4 are to be served concurrently with

19 each other, and Counts 5 and 6 are to be served with

20 concurrently with each other, correct?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q That was as early as September of 1992, the

23 government was already recommending in your agreement that
24 whatever sentences you get under these counts be merged
25 and you serve one sentence, right?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4532
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q Now, as part of this agreement it says you'll have to

3 provide truthful, complete and accurate information,

4 right?

5 A That is correct.

6 Q And you understand that when it says truthful,

7 complete and accurate information, it's the government,

8 the United States Attorney's Office that determines what

9 is truthful, complete and accurate information; am I

10 right?

11 A Yes, I believe they would determine that.

12 Q It's their definition of what is truthful, complete

13 and accurate that fulfills this agreement, not your

14 definition, right?

15 A I'm not aware whether it be a unilateral definition

16 or not but I'm sure it is accurate to say that.

17 Q They decide what they think is truthful, complete and

18 accurate, right?

19 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir.

20 Q Now, referring to paragraph 6 -- before we get to

21 that, let's talk about what you have to do to get your

22 cooperation agreement, all right.

23 It says you have to be -- agree to be fully
24 debriefed and attend all meetings, right?
25 You've done that?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4533
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q It says you have to furnish to the office all

3 documents and other material relevant to the investigation

4 that are in your pos session or control?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q And to participate in undercover activities pursuant

7 to special instructions of law enforcement agents; is that

8 correct?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q You can't reveal your cooperation, right?

11 A Correct.

12 Q As a condition of your cooperation, you further have

13 to agree to testify at any proceeding in this district or

14 elsewhere?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q You saw that, right?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q And you have to consent to adjournments of your

19 sentences at times?

20 A Would have had to, yes, sir.

21 Q Which had happened in your case, right?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q And then you had agreed to cooperate fully with the
24 Internal Revenue Service to compute your taxes?
25 A Yes, sir.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4534
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q And it represents in paragraph 6 that no further

2 criminal charges will be brought against you for your

3 participation in criminal activity involving wire fraud,

4 mail fraud, credit card fraud, tax fraud, bank fraud, the

5 making of false statements to the United States Postal

6 Service and the Internal Revenue Service, obstruction of

7 justice and the defrauding of or stealing of money from

8 the United States, all from the period September 24, 1984

9 through July 30, 1991.

10 Do you see that?

11 A Yes, sir. What paragraph are you on?

12 Q I'm on paragraph 6.

13 A (Perusing.) Yes.

14 Q You see that; am I correct?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q Nobody charged you with credit card fraud, did they?

17 A No, sir.

18 Q Nobody ever charged you with bank fraud, did they?

19 A No, sir.

20 Q Those were charges you were facing though; am I

21 correct?

22 A Not to the best of my knowledge, no.

23 Q They are in this agreement that you wouldn't be
24 charged with those things?
25 A If I were guilty of them, yes, sir.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4535
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q And it says that you have to provide -- paragraph 7

2 -- substantial assistance to law enforcement

3 authorities.

4 Do you see that?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q Now, substantial assistance is something that the

7 government determines as to whether or not you gave it to

8 them; is that correct?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q You don't determine whether you've substantially

11 assisted the government, do you?

12 A No, sir.

13 Q Mr. White and Inspector Biegelman decide based on

14 what you've done for them whether or not you've provided

15 substantial assistance, right?

16 A No, sir, that is not accurate.

17 Q You are telling me that is not accurate.

18 A No, sir. Mr. White had nothing to do with this.

19 Q Seth Marvin at the time?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Let's use Seth Marvin instead of Mr. White.

22 Seth Marvin and Inspector Biegelman were the ones

23 who would determine whether or not you provided
24 substantial assistance, right?
25 A And I think also Officer Jordan as well.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4536
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q Well, he's one of the agents also, correct?

2 A Yes.

3 Q He's from the IRS side of the case?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q And the defense lawyers in any given case, they don't

6 determine whether or not you've substantially assisted the

7 government; is that correct?

8 A That's correct.

9 Q The only ones that can give you the 5K letter that

10 you need are the U.S. Attorneys, right?

11 A That's correct.

12 Q So you have to earn the 5K letter, right?

13 A By hard work, yes, sir.

14 Q See, you understood, do you not, as you sit here

15 today, that unless you cooperated with the government, I

16 would be talking to you now in an orange jumpsuit?

17 A Probably correct, sir.

18 Q You would be doing 70 to 87 months in jail?

19 A I don't know what the number is, but it would be more

20 than I liked.

21 Q That was your estimate?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q In your cooperation agreement?
24 A That was the government's estimate, yes, sir.
25 Q 70 to 87 months?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4537
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And if you had not cooperated with the government and

3 testified and called people up identifying yourself as

4 someone you weren't, you wouldn't be walking around doing

5 consulting work for Core States Bank, would you?

6 A I can't respond to that question the way you phrased

7 it, sir.

8 Q Let's put it this way.

9 If you didn't get this 5K letter, you would be in

10 jail?

11 A Probably.

12 Q You would have gone to jail.

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q Are you surprised you didn't go to jail?

15 A I can't say I am, no.

16 Q You think you should have gone to jail?

17 A I can't comment on whether I should or shouldn't.

18 You asked whether I was surprised or not.

19 Q Well, for everything you've done, right, everything

20 you did criminally, you think you should have spent any

21 time in jail?

22 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no.

23 Q Do you think these people should spend any time in
24 jail?
25 A It wouldn't be my plac e to make that decision.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4538
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 MR. WHITE: Objection --

2 THE COURT: When counsel gets up, he got up to a

3 half crouch at that time.

4 MR. WHITE: He's much faster than I am.

5 THE COURT: Well, he's not giving you much chance

6 to get up, but when you make an objection make it faster.

7 When you see him rise, that means he's about to make an

8 objection.

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

10 THE COURT: I was going to say he was going to

11 stroll around the courthouse but it doesn't matter.

12 MR. JENKS: May I continue, Your Honor?

13 THE COURT: Yes. I'm glad I slowed you down for

14 a while, Mr. Jenks.

15 BY MR. JENKS:

16 Q The government in fact did file a 5K letter for you;

17 am I right?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q And they filed your 5K letter to Judge Mishler; is

20 that correct?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q And they told Judge Mishler all the cooperation that

23 you had gone out of your way to do for them, right?
24 A That's correct, sir.
25 Q And then Judge Mishler sentenced you to six months

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4539
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 house arrest, right?

2 A Amongst other things, yes.

3 Q Let's talk about the house arrest first.

4 A Okay.

5 Q When you got sentenced to the house arrest, house

6 arrest doesn't mean you are not allowed to do work?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q You used to go out every day. You weren't locked in

9 your room 24 hours a day seven days a week?

10 A I was allowed to work, yes, sir.

11 Q And you were working, right?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q You saw the 5K letter that the government had filed

14 to Judge Mishler?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q And now, as part of your cooperation, this isn't the

17 only company you recorded conversations in, right?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q You recorded conversations with former employees of

20 Oxford's Who's Who?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q Another corporation on Long Island?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q And as a result of the information you gave, a search
25 warrant was issued there and an individual by the name of

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4540
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 William Blackwell was arrested, right?

2 A That's correct.

3 Q And you are also responsible, are you not, for the

4 guilty plea of Fred Shikinder (ph)?

5 A Yes. Shikinder.

6 Q Is that person related to the other Shikinder that

7 was one of your employees?

8 A Yes.

9 Q What is the relati onship?

10 A I believe he's her father.

11 Q And he pled guilty based on what cooperation you've

12 provided, right?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q Then you made 60 calls to this company?

15 A 61.

16 Q 61?

17 A 61.

18 Q 61?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q And that resulted in 29 people being arrested in this

21 company, right?

22 A I'm not aware of the exact number, sir.

23 Q Well, it did result in numerous arrests, right? You
24 know that?
25 A I'm aware of numerous, yes, sir.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4541
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q In fact, you instigated the prosecution of this

2 company?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q You instigated to help you get this 5K letter?

5 A No, sir.

6 Q Are you not the person who went to Inspector

7 Biegelman in 1994 and told him about the Reed Else vier

8 litigation with the Who's Who World Wide?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q Are you not the one that was monitoring closely what

11 had happened in the Reed Elsevier litigation against Who's

12 Who World Wide?

13 A No, sir, I was not.

14 Q You informed the postal inspector that Reed had

15 obtained a judgment against Who's Who World Wide for

16 1.7 million dollars, right?

17 A Yes, that was brought to my attention by my

18 attorney. I brought it to Inspector Biegelman's

19 attention.

20 Q And you went right to Biegelman?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And you suggested to Biegelman let's go after them

23 criminally, correct?
24 A Not in the slightest bit correct.
25 Q Why would you bring it to Biegelman's attention

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4542
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 unless you wanted to get some more points to work off your

2 jail sentence?

3 A Not at all, sir. May I ask you a question? You

4 asked me a question why, I would like to explain the

5 question.

6 Q Let me withdraw the question and reframe it.

7 You knew that Reed Elsevier obtained a judgment

8 against Gordon's companies, correct?

9 A Yes, my attorney brought it to my attention.

10 Q And you went to Biegelman?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And then it was from August of '94 through March of

13 '95 that you began making these 61 calls?

14 A At Mr. Biegelman's request.

15 Q By the way, you were making these calls from all over

16 the country?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q Where were you making the calls from?

19 A Some of the calls were made from my home in Fort

20 Lauderdale.

21 Q Yes.

22 A Some were made from the Ramada Inn in New Jersey.

23 Some were made from the postal of fice inspection station
24 in Hicksville. Some were made from various hotels in
25 California.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4543
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q Who was paying to fly you around the country while

2 you were out on bail in your case before sentence?

3 A Well, I was doing other business. I wasn't making

4 those trips because of the post office. I happened to be

5 there and that was where I made the phone calls from.

6 Q Was the government helping pay your expenses?

7 A No, sir.

8 Q But they were aware that while you were on bail and

9 while you were cooperating, you were flying all over the

10 country to take care of other business, right?

11 A With the full permission of probation, yes, sir.

12 Q And with the permission of the U.S. government?

13 A Yes.

14 Q You needed their permission?

15 A No, si r, just the probation department.

16 Q Well, the U.S. government had authorized the

17 probation department to allow you to go around the

18 country?

19 A The probation department makes their own decisions.

20 Q With the input of the U.S. government, sir?

21 A I'm not aware of that, sir.

22 Q Well, who thought or who cooked up the idea to make

23 the 61 calls to Who's Who World Wide, you or Biegelman?
24 A Inspector Biegelman.
25 Q And he told you, he said let's do what you do best,

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4544
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 right, let's pretend we are someone we're not?

2 A That wasn't his phraseology, sir.

3 Q No.

4 A No, sir.

5 Q You know, I've listened -- you've listened to these

6 tapes, right?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q You know I've listened?

9 A Yes.

10 Q You know yo u are really smooth on the tapes, right?

11 MR. WHITE: Objection.

12 THE COURT: Sustained.

13 BY MR. JENKS:

14 Q This comes natural to you, doesn't it?

15 A Sir, I don't know what your question means. If I'm

16 capable of speaking English, yes.

17 Q I know you are capable of speaking English, whether

18 you were capable of lying. You went to the university of

19 Pennsylvania --

20 THE COURT: Let's not go into that again. We've

21 given them enough publicity.

22 BY MR. JENKS:

23 Q You've listened to them?
24 A Numerous times.
25 Q And you hear yourself lying up a storm, right? You

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4545
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 are the one, hey, my name didn't come from some mailing

2 list, did it not? That's you talking?

3 A Absolutely.

4 Q Biegelman didn't put those words in you r mouth?

5 A No, sir.

6 Q You thought them up?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Let me think these questions up to try to entrap some

9 people into getting in trouble so I could get my 5K letter

10 and walk out the door?

11 A Absolutely incorrect, sir.

12 Q Listen, it is correct because you were making those

13 calls to help yourself get a lighter sentence in 1995?

14 A Not to entrap the people, sir.

15 Q Sir, you were calling up to directly benefit yourself

16 by making those calls to these people otherwise you

17 wouldn't have been calling from Atlanta and from the

18 Ramada in New Jersey.

19 A I was calling to benefit myself but in no way to

20 entrap the people, sir.

21 Q Sir, you heard yourself speak on those tapes, right?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q You heard yourself say, yeah, I'm in this paper
24 company and I just got promoted to regional manager. It 's
25 a bunch of nonsense, right?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4546
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A No, sir.

2 Q You were lying without even stuttering.

3 A I wasn't lying. I was doing what I was asked to do

4 making a call using a mock name to see what the nature of

5 the presentation would be.

6 Q You were lying who you were when you called in?

7 A I don't regard it to be a lie, sir. I was acting on

8 behalf of the U.S. government.

9 Q You remember calling up someone and identifying

10 someone who you were not as a lie?

11 A Not on the representation of the U.S. government.

12 Q Maybe to you that is not a lie, to me it is a lie.

13 MR. WHITE: Objection.

14 THE COURT: Sustained.

15 You have to give Mr. White a chance -- this time

16 he got up very quickly but you didn't give him a chance.

17 THE WITNESS : He was being blocked by Mr. Jenks.

18 THE COURT: Either he'll have to move or grow,

19 one or the other. I don't think he will get taller, so he

20 will have to move.

21 BY MR. JENKS:

22 Q Now, Mr. West, Inspector Biegelman didn't tell you

23 what to say in these calls, did he?
24 A Not initially.
25 Q This is something you cooked up on your own, right?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4547
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A You have to define "cooked up on your own" to me,

2 sir.

3 Q When you called in to make these tapes, you weren't

4 making these tapes because you had nothing better to do;

5 am I right?

6 A Inspector Biegelman asked me to make the calls, sir.

7 Yes, I made the calls.

8 Q And you wanted to make the calls, correct?

9 A I certainly did.

10 Q The design of those calls, when you made those cal ls

11 with a statement in mind that I want to get these people

12 in trouble, correct?

13 A No, sir.

14 Q Listen, you didn't make those calls because you were

15 in a charitable mood and you wanted to see what was going

16 on?

17 A That's not correct, sir.

18 Q You were making these calls to try to have these

19 people admit -- withdrawn.

20 You were making these calls to try to have these

21 people say something that would be criminal in nature so

22 they could get arrested and you could get a benefit from

23 it, right?
24 A No, that's not correct, sir.
25 THE COURT: Is this a good time to take a recess,

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4548
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Mr. Jenks.

2 MR. JENKS: It is, Your Honor.

3 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we'll take a

4 ten-minute recess.

5 Please don't discuss the case. Please keep an

6 open mind.

7 You notice I took a later recess because we

8 started later.

9 (Recess taken.)

10 (Jury enters.)

11 THE COURT: Tomorrow morning we'll start at

12 10 a.m. So if anybody wanted to come at 9 or at 8 or at

13 7, I would say no, I don't want you to do that. Come at

14 10 tomorrow.

15 BY MR. JENKS:

16 Q I want to talk to you more about these 61 calls that

17 you made.

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q You made these 61 calls to try to get these people to

20 say something that would get them in criminal trouble,

21 correct?

22 A No, sir.

23 Q You did not, that's your testimony?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q You've listened to all 61 of these calls; is that

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4549
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 correct?

2 A Yes, sir .

3 Q When you made these calls in virtually all of the

4 calls you used certain buzz words; am I right?

5 A If you mean certain phrases or sentences, the answer

6 is yes.

7 Q Certain phrases and sentences.

8 Let me give you certain sentences that you used.

9 A Yes.

10 Q Nominations?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q Mailing lists?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Statistics, what percentage of members are included,

15 right?

16 A Umm-hmm, yes.

17 Q And are there any conferences?

18 A Yes.

19 Q The plaque is not real marble. You recall those

20 phrases?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q About any foreign members?

23 A I may have used that a few times.
24 Q Famous members?
25 A Yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4550
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q Who nominated me?

2 A Yes.

3 Q T hat's the theme of all of these calls you made?

4 A No, not entirely, sir.

5 Q But generally speaking, that's the theme of these

6 calls, those questions, right?

7 A No, sir.

8 Q You asked those questions designed to elicit a

9 specific answer, correct?

10 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no.

11 Q Well, you knew what the postal inspectors were

12 looking for in terms of answers to those questions, right?

13 A No, sir.

14 Q So you asked the key questions, correct?

15 A No, sir.

16 Q Sir, you made those 61 calls and you went out of your

17 way to tape record all of those calls?

18 A You mean out of my way I was instructed to tape all

19 of those calls.

20 Q You tape-recorded the calls.

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q You never told the other person at the other end of

23 the calls that you were tape-recording those phone calls?

24 A No, sir.
25 Q In every single one of those calls you made, you

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4551
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 lied, right?

2 A Not as I define lying, sir.

3 Q Maybe your definition of lying is different than my

4 definition of lying.

5 But when you tell somebody that you're somebody

6 you're not, you're lying, right?

7 A Not when I'm acting on behalf of the U.S. government,

8 no.

9 Q So when the government tells you to lie then you lie?

10 A Not in general, in a specific part of the

11 investigation, I thought it was okay.

12 Q You got the protection, the bulletproof protection of

13 a cooperation agreement, it's okay to lie to other people

14 to get them into criminal trouble, right?

15 A No, sir.

16 Q Do you feel as you sit here today that there's

17 anything wrong with telling a person you're somebody that

18 you're not?

19 A Not in an investigation, not at all, sir.

20 Q Would you agree with me it would be morally bankrupt

21 to represent yourself as somebody you are not?

22 A Not at all in an investigation. I don't agree with

23 you at all, sir.
24 Q As long as it is in the contention of an
25 investigation, it's okay what you want?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4552
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Whatever you want. We're posing as a different

2 party, not doing whatever you want.

3 Q Posing as a different party to get people in criminal

4 trouble to save yourself from having to go to jail. You

5 find nothing wrong with that, right?

6 A No, sir. The way you phrase your question I can't

7 respond to your question.

8 Q Okay.

9 When you made these calls, right, you told the

10 people that in many of the calls "I already called, I

11 spoke to you a few weeks ago." Right, that's how old they

12 all start off?

13 A Not all start off.

14 Q With your nice smooth voice?

15 A Not all of them, no, sir.

16 Q Most of them said "I already called and I am looking

17 to become a member in your organization"?

18 A Not all, the majority of them start that way.

19 Q "I've already spoken to you." Do you recall that

20 line of nonsense?

21 A Partly, a minority of the calls start that way.

22 Q "I already spoke to you"?

23 A Four or five, maybe ten out of the 61.
24 Q "I just got promoted"?
25 A Four or five.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4553
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q "My company got a few bucks, I want to go around for

2 some PR work"?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And "I sent in a card and neve r heard from a few

5 people so I'm calling you"?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q "I want to know what's involved being a part of this

8 organization," right?

9 A That's not my phrase -- that's not quite my

10 phraseology, sir, but we may say something such as that.

11 Q All of those statements are straight up, outright

12 misrepresentations, correct?

13 A Not in my context, sir, no, they are not.

14 Q Because you are doing an investigation for the

15 government.

16 You know, don't you find it interesting that

17 people are on trial here because the government says that

18 they lied yet it's okay for you to lie when you work for

19 the government calling up other people?

20 MR. WHITE: Objection.

21 THE COURT: Sustained. Please don't argue with

22 the witness.

23 BY MR. JENKS:
24 Q I just want to make sure I understand this, okay.
25 You f eel that it's okay for you to lie as long as

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4554
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 you are working in an investigation for the government?

2 A No, sir, that's not accurate. If you let me answer

3 your question. May I answer the question?

4 Q I'll withdraw the question.

5 A Thank you.

6 Q Let's take a look at this Government's Exhibit

7 13-30-A which is a tape you had with Steve Rubin, Steve

8 Waldon.

9 Stand up, Mr. Rubin.

10 Did you see Mr. Rubin before?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q You made a tape with him?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Where it is two to 300 degrees below zero but it's

15 okay in my mind.

16 A With Boris Yeltsin.

17 Q You know the tape?

18 A Yes.

19 Q You know what you had to do when you made that call

20 on the tape?

21 THE COURT: What exhibit is this?

22 MR. JENKS: 13-30-A, Your Honor.

23 THE COURT: 13-30-A for Able.
24 BY MR. JENKS:
25 Q You knew what you had to do when you called up?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4555
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Yes, I knew what I had to do, sir.

2 Q I just selected this one out, okay. I can't go

3 through all 61 of them with you, but I thought this was a

4 good one for us to take a look at.

5 A Good.

6 Q You call in, you say you are Larry Weltman.

7 A What page is that?

8 Q Page 1 of 13-30-A.

9 Do you have the transcripts in front of you?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q I just picked this one. Let's take a look at some of

12 the things you say here in this transcript.

13 Page 1. You identify yourself as Larry Weltman;

14 is that correct?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q You are not Larry Weltman; is that correct?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q It says "I'm a printing salesperson and I just got a

19 promotion with national key accounts sales as a

20 salesperson"?

21 A I never work for them.

22 Q Never worked for them?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q Biegelman never told you that?
25 A I can't answer that.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4556
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q This is something that you made up?

2 A That's not true, sir.

3 Q You make this up like you are talking about every day

4 affairs?

5 A If you let me answer your question about Inspector

6 Biegelman.

7 Q Say it your way.

8 A Inspector Biegelman suggested I choose various

9 occupations and names and make these calls to determine

10 the nature of the presentation. That was the nature of

11 his instructions. Acting upon his instructions I made

12 these calls.

13 Q And manipulate the nature of the presentation with

14 these people. Manipulated, getting them to say something

15 on the tapes?

16 A No such thing about anyone.

17 Q Let's look at page 2. Top of the page.

18 "We spoke about two months ago. Do you recall

19 the conversation?" And then Mr. Walden says "definitely,

20 yes." Do you see that?

21 A Yes.

22 Q You didn't speak to him two months ago; is that

23 correct?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q You did not speak to him?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4557
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A That's correct, I did not speak to him.

2 Q More lies and more nonsense calling in, correct?

3 A No, sir, that is not correct.

4 Q It's at least a lie?

5 A No, sir.

6 Q This is not a lie telling somebody on the telephone

7 that you don't even know that you spoke to them two months

8 ago?

9 A If I'm acting under Inspector Biegelman's

10 instructions to use a certain format in an investigation,

11 I don't regard that to be a lie.

12 Q The government grants you absolution, as they say,

13 you can say anything you want on the phone?

14 A Limited to the narrow niche of saying an occupation,

15 not saying whatever I wanted to, sir.

16 Q "You told me that I was nominated by one of the

17 members or some such thing and you gave me a brief

18 explanation and honestly, you used the word honestly in

19 there, and honestly I lost, I realized it wasn't

20 economically appropriate. Now, it's not a big deal to

21 spend $500 to get some PR for myself, so would, would,

22 would you just assume I'm ignorant here and just start

23 from the beginning if you would."
24 That's you talking, isn't it?
25 A Yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4558
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q That's you talking to Mr. Walden, trying to get

2 Mr. Walden to say things to you so Mr. Walden could get

3 himself in criminal troubles?

4 A I'm getting him to say things. If he says things

5 that will get him in trouble, that's on his own.

6 Q So you are asking him on this transcript about famous

7 people, about who nominated you, about mailing lists; am I

8 correct?

9 A Those questions were correct, sir, yes, I asked those

10 questions. I didn't make the answers come out of

11 Mr. Walden though.

12 Q You asked the questions so he would make the answers

13 come out?

14 A He could answer honestly or dishonestly, his choice.

15 Q It was his choice but it is okay for you to say

16 whatever you want to say on the telephone?

17 A I didn't say wh atever I wanted to say. It was a very

18 narrow issue what I wanted to say.

19 Q You weren't a national key account manager?

20 A No, sir.

21 Q You weren't calling from Atlanta, were you?

22 A No, sir.

23 Q Where were you calling from?
24 A I don't have a recollection at this point.
25 Q All right.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4559
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 You told him you are a manufacturer, correct?

2 A That is correct.

3 Q You are not any kind of a manufacturer, right?

4 A No, I'm not, sir.

5 Q You tell him in here on page 9, in the middle of the

6 page "to be honest with you, honestly, I don't want to

7 mislead the people because I'm just getting the promotion

8 as of January 1st."

9 Do you see that in the transcript?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q You were misleading everybody, right, including

12 Mr. Walden?

13 A Sir, as I previously stated --

14 Q Right.

15 A I'm testifying here if I'm acting upon a postal

16 investigator's investigation, I'm not acting or misleading

17 the party.

18 Q You asked about nominations on page 10. A male

19 voice, in the middle of the page "someone had nominated

20 me. Which of my clients was it?"

21 Do you see that?

22 A I don't see that, sir.

23 Q Look at page 10 in the middle of the page under "male
24 voice."
25 You are the male voice, right?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4560
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A I see that, Counselor, yes.

2 Q You see that, right?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q You knew that nobody had nominated you, that you were

5 cooperating with the government?

6 A Yes, sir. Part of the investigation.

7 Q Let me show you this and I' ll mark this as

8 Defendant's Exhibit AM.

9 THE COURT: Able M.

10 MR. JENKS: Able Mike, Your Honor.

11 BY MR. JENKS:

12 Q Now, let's take a look at Defendant's Exhibit AM.

13 THE COURT: Is that for Identification?

14 MR. JENKS: For Identification, Your Honor.

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q Do you see that?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q That's a checklist you made up of questions to ask;

19 am I right?

20 A Actually, it is questions I asked after the fact.

21 Actually, it's an analysis of the tape or a conversation

22 as opposed to a checklist. It was Mr. Biegelman's or

23 Inspector Biegelman's evaluation of the tape.
24 Q This is in your handwriting, right?
25 A That's correct.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4561
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q It's an analysis of check points. It says, "tape

2 number check p oints," right?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q And the check points that are on here is who is Kathy

5 Ross, right?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q How was I nominated? What about conferences? Where

8 are the seminars? Was my name on the list? Will my name

9 ever be rented? Is this a prestigious association? What

10 percentage of people get selected?

11 MR. WHITE: Excuse me. Will you tell me what you

12 are reading from or give me a copy of it?

13 MR. JENKS: I don't have a copy to give you but

14 I'll certainly let you look at it.

15 MR. NELSON: 3500-22-H for the tape number 35.

16 MR. SCHOER: Tape number 35.

17 BY MR. JENKS:

18 Q This is a checklist of tape number 35?

19 A After it was created, yes, sir.

20 Q And it's in your handwriting?

21 A Absolutely.

22 MR. JENKS: I will offer this as Defendant's

23 Exhibit AM in evidence, Your Honor .
24 THE COURT: Show it to counsel.
25 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I have an objection

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4562
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 because this is a two-page document that Mr. Jenks is

2 offering. He's offering only one page of it.

3 THE COURT: May I see the documents?

4 MR. WHITE: And it also relates to a different

5 conference he just asked Mr. West about.

6 MR. JENKS: (Handing to Court.)

7 THE COURT: You say that document marked tape

8 number 35 is part of the exhibit?

9 MR. WHITE: No, Your Honor. That's my point.

10 There's a cover page for tape 34. The offered exhibit is

11 page 2 of that document. That relates to a different

12 conversation.

13 THE COURT: Well, I don't have that in front of

14 me.

15 MR. JENKS: Your Honor, maybe we should have a

16 side bar on this.

17 THE C OURT: Come up.

18 (Side bar.)

19 MR. WHITE: Let me check the original. Maybe I'm

20 confused. In any event, it is a two-page document.

21 THE COURT: Where are the two pages?

22 MR. NELSON: (Handing.)

23 THE COURT: Are these both in Mr. Watstein's
24 handwriting?
25 MR. JENKS: I believe so, Your Honor.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4563
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Mr. White, look at the bottom of the two

2 documents.

3 MR. WHITE: All right. May I see the offered

4 exhibit?

5 MR. JENKS: (Handing.)

6 MR. WHITE: Okay, I'm incorrect. This does

7 relate to number 35 but it is a two-page document.

8 MR. JENKS: Those two pages right here.

9 MR. WHITE: If you put them both in I will have

10 an objection.

11 MR. DUNN: I object, Judge, to the first page

12 going in, Judge. If you look at the very bottom of the

13 first page where it has comments.

14 THE COURT: This one?

15 MR. DUNN: Yes. Next to comments it has major

16 misrepresentations and I oppose that going into evidence.

17 That is a conclusion that this individual apparently

18 made. Biegelman made.

19 THE COURT: You oppose it if it is redacted,

20 those comments.

21 MR. DUNN: If that's redacted, fine, I would have

22 no objection.

23 THE COURT: I would redact it.
24 MR. JENKS: I have no problem with that.
25 MR. WHITE: That's fine.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4564
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 THE COURT: As redacted, the two-page document

2 will go in.

3 (End side bar.)

4 THE COURT: All right. Defendant's Exhibit AM,

5 Able Mike, two pages as redacted in evidence.

6 (Defendant's Exhibit AM received in evidence.)

7 BY M R. JENKS:

8 Q This is a checklist you made up in your handwriting,

9 correct, and that relates to tape number 35, right?

10 A After the creation of the tape.

11 Q Why don't we look along with it to see what

12 checkpoints you put down, okay, since you weren't trying

13 to get these people in criminal trouble.

14 Who was Kathy Ross, you put that in there; is

15 that correct?

16 A That is correct.

17 Q How was I nominated?

18 A Yes.

19 Q What about conferences? What are seminars?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Was name on the list? Will my name ever be rented?

22 Is this a prestigious association? What percentage of

23 people get selected? How long have you been in business?
24 How long have you been there? Do you have a good Better
25 Business Bureau report?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4565
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Yes.

2 Q These are all checkpoints to check yourself to make

3 sure you asked all the right questions while you were on

4 the phone?

5 A No, sir. These were checkpoints for Inspector

6 Biegelman and his evaluation of the tape after they were

7 already created.

8 Q Right.

9 You wanted to make sure that Inspector Biegelman

10 knew you were asking all the right questions, correct?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q All right.

13 Let's talk a little bit more about your 5K

14 letter. We already established that you recorded

15 conversations with Oxford Who's Who and with Who's Who

16 World Wide and that you made some 61 calls.

17 You also were involved, were you not, in the case

18 of United States versus Robert Rosenfeld?

19 A Yes, I'll need a copy of the 5K letter if you are

20 reading from that, sir.

21 MR. JENKS: That's 3500-22-I.

22 BY MR. JENKS:

23 Q I'll show you 3500-22-I for Identification with the
24 attachments.
25 That's your 5K letter from the government,

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4566
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 correct?

2 A Thank you. I'll look at it. Thank you.

3 Yes, sir.

4 Q And the 5K letter itself is four typewritten single

5 spaced pages, right?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q And you are familiar with the case United States

8 versus Robert Rosenfeld?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Where are you reading from?

11 Q Paragraph 3.

12 A On which page, sir?

13 Q Page 2. It's actually number 3.

14 Do you see number 3?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q Are you familiar with that case?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q That was a case in front of Judge Spatt, correct?

19 A I don't know who it was in front of, sir, but I'm

20 familiar with the case.

21 Q You worked in an undercover capacity and as a result

22 of your cooperation Mr. Robert Rosenfeld was arrested and

23 did a 21 month term in jail; is that correct?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q Robert Rosenfeld had nothing to do with Who's Who

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4567
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 World Wide?

2 A To the best of my knowledge, yes.

3 Q The answer is he did not?

4 A He did not, that's correct.

5 Q You also made recorded calls to the target of a

6 mail-order fraud investigation, right, and that as a

7 result resulted in the arrest of a John Yung in February

8 of 1995 on mail fraud charges, that's correct?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Did you testify in that case?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q Did you testify at Rosenfeld's?

13 A No.

14 Q Did you testify in any proceeding in f ront of Judge

15 Spatt or in front of Judge Mishler?

16 A No, sir. I testified in front of Judge Mishler in my

17 own proceeding.

18 Q In your own sentence?

19 A Yes.

20 Q When you told him how sorry you were for everything;

21 is that correct?

22 A That's correct, sir.

23 Q Number 5, you got letters from people in the
24 Department of Labor in Florida, right, for work you had
25 done there; is that correct?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4568
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A That's correct.

2 Q You also got yourself involved in an advertising

3 fraud investigation, number 6?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q And you also met with the principal of an airline

6 ticketing company on an undercover basis and obtained

7 detailed information relating to the operation of his

8 company. You did that, right?

9 A Yes.

10 Q You got him in trouble?

11 A No, sir. He was exonerated.

12 Q He went to trial in the New York State court?

13 A I believe that was a civil trial.

14 Q You testified in that trial?

15 A No, sir.

16 Q You called an international Who's Who company in the

17 south as well; is that correct?

18 A Yes.

19 Q You provided information for two targets of tax fraud

20 in Miami, Florida also, correct?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q You went to a party up in New Jersey; is that

23 correct?
24 A A number of parties. If you are referring to the one
25 in this document, the answer is yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4569
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q In number 12.

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q You were trying to target a money laundering

4 operation, right?

5 A That was the request of the FBI , yes, sir.

6 Q Did you make recorded calls there while you were

7 there or secret tapes?

8 A Not at the party, no.

9 Q Later on you did?

10 A Previous to that.

11 Q Okay.

12 Then of course you testified in the grand jury in

13 United States versus Gregory Phillips, Linda Zeitzer, and

14 Kathy Shikinder which is a Judge Mishler case?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q Those are your three employees?

17 A As I previously testified.

18 Q That was your case?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q And you went in the grand jury and you provided

21 detailed and invaluable information about the involvement

22 of these employees? You did that, right?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q You gave history and background about these people?
25 A That's correct.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4570
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q And did you ever enter into a second cooperation

2 agreement with the government and after in fact you were

3 sentenced?

4 A No, I believe Judge Mishler instructed me to

5 cooperate and there was no need for a formal cooperation

6 agreement.

7 Q You were instructed to cooperate by the Judge --

8 Judge Mishler, by the way, sits upstairs in this building?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q And he was your judge from the beginning to the end

11 of this case?

12 A That's correct, sir.

13 Q As a condition of your probation he instructed you to

14 cooperate?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q In other words, under normal circumstances once you

17 are sentenced your cooperation ends, correct?

18 A I'm not aware of that, sir.

19 Q Well, you knew that when you were in front of Judge

20 Mishler?

21 A No.

22 Q Because the Judge himself had instructed t hat you

23 continue to cooperate with the government during the
24 course of your probation?
25 A But I wasn't aware of what was normal and what

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4571
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 wasn't.

2 Q All right.

3 Do you see in the letter that the government

4 wrote to Judge Mishler on the last page of that letter

5 "while we are guardedly optimistic that Watstein will

6 change his pattern of conduct in the future, it is

7 difficult to ignore his long-term criminal and fraudulent

8 conduct."

9 Do you see that?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q "Without attempting to trivialize Watstein's history

12 or the tens of thousands of people he has victimized, we

13 conclude that Watstein has provided substantial assistance

14 in the investigation and prosecution of others."

15 A You skipped a line there, s ir.

16 Q "We conclude based upon the hundreds of hours of time

17 he has invested cooperating with the government, that's in

18 parenthesis, that Watstein has provided substantial

19 assistance in the investigation and prosecution of

20 others. We therefore submit this letter pursuant to

21 Section 5K1.1 of the sentencing guidelines so that the

22 Court may in its discretion depart from the guideline

23 ranges of 57 to 71 months in imposing sentence."
24 Correct?
25 A That's correct, sir.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4572
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q So your ultimate range when you were being sentenced

2 was down to 57 to 71; is that correct?

3 A That's correct, without guidelines, without downward

4 adjustment.

5 Q So despite your long-term criminal conduct and

6 fraudulent conduct, you still managed to manipulate

7 yourself a sentence of nonjail, right?

8 A The word manipulation is not a word that I accept,

9 sir.

10 Q You don't like the word manipulation.

11 You still managed to get yourself a nonjail

12 sentence; is that correct?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q I want to show you one other exhibit here.

15 Just take a look at this for me. This is

16 3500-22-G for Identification.

17 Take a look at that.

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q You sent that document, right?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q You typed that up and sent it off to Biegelman,

22 correct?

23 A No, sir.
24 Q You didn't. It says "to Marty Biegelman," not
25 Inspector Martin T. Biegelman, but "to Marty Biegelman,"

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4573
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 right, "from Steve West"?

2 A That's correct.

3 Q Did you prepare thi s document?

4 A No, sir.

5 Q Someone else typed it for you?

6 A Yes.

7 Q You gave the information in this document?

8 A Absolutely.

9 Q Dated August 29, 1994?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q Did you inform Inspector Biegelman that you had

12 learned that Who's Who World Wide maintains an entire

13 floor at 760 Lexington Avenue, fourth floor, and the

14 person in charge of the office was Maggie Swendseid?

15 A Yes.

16 Q You told that -- you told Biegelman that supposedly

17 they have conference room facilities and are renting it

18 out to members?

19 A If that's what it says in the letter.

20 Q "I will continue the process out here," is that what

21 you told him?

22 A I was duty bound to report all the information to

23 Inspector Biegelman, that's what I did.
24 Q You were typing memos to Inspector Biegelman as to
25 what was g oing on in 1994?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4574
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A The singular memo.

2 Q This singular memo?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q You had this prepared and you mailed it off to him?

5 A I believe it was faxed to him.

6 Q To let him know "I will continue to process out

7 here."

8 When you sent this memo, where were you?

9 A My office in Pompano Beach, Florida at 1000 West

10 McNab Road.

11 Q And you wanted to let him know you will continue

12 doing what you are doing, right?

13 A Absolutely.

14 MR. JENKS: I'm going to offer this, Judge, as

15 Defendant's Exhibit AN in evidence.

16 THE COURT: Any objection?

17 MR. WHITE: No, Your Honor.

18 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit AN in evidence.

19 What is that, Mr. Jenks?

20 MR. JENKS: It's a memorandum, Your Honor.

21 THE C OURT: What is the date of that?

22 MR. JENKS: August 29, 1994.

23 (Defendant's Exhibit AN received in evidence.)
24 BY MR. JENKS:
25 Q Now, I'm just going to talk to you about a few more

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4575
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 things and one of them I want to talk to you about is some

2 other criminal activity that you've had because we want to

3 -- withdrawn.

4 When you had your company Who's Who U.S.

5 Executives, you represented to your employees that they

6 had health insurance, right?

7 A That is correct, sir.

8 Q And the healthcare insurance was nonexistent; is that

9 right?

10 A Totally incorrect, sir.

11 Q Well, you saw your sentence report that was prepared

12 in your criminal case, right?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q There's a section in there that says other criminal

15 conduct about you, right?

16 A It was not proven and it was inaccurate, sir.

17 Q It was inaccurate?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q Well, let's see, you tell me what is inaccurate here,

20 okay.

21 A Okay.

22 Q It says "the government engaged in a scheme to

23 defraud employees"?
24 A The government?
25 Q "The defendant engaged in a scheme to defraud

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4576
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 employees of Who's Who by providing them with healthcare

2 insurance which was nonexistent. According to a former

3 employee West informed employees that they would be

4 provided healthcare insurance by Blue Cross/Blue Shield."

5 Did you tell employees that?

6 A Yes, sir and it was.

7 Q "Payment for health insurance was deducted directly

8 from the employees' salaries. However, according to the

9 former employee, he was hospitalized and discovered that

10 he had no health insurance."

11 Is that so? Do you recall that?

12 A Do I recall the employee stating that?

13 Q Yes.

14 A Yes, I recall the employee stating that.

15 Q Was that accurate?

16 A I don't know whether it was accurate or not, but

17 there was an employee.

18 Q Did you defraud the employee when he was supposed to

19 have hospital insurance and when he went to the hospital

20 he didn't?

21 A No, sir.

22 Q When the former employee said that he was not the

23 only employee defrauded by you in this manner, is that
24 also an inaccurate statement?
25 A Yes, sir, it is inaccurate.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4577
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 MR. JENKS: Just a moment, Your Honor.

2 THE COURT: Yes.

3 MR. JENKS: Just a few mo re questions, Mr. West.

4 BY MR. JENKS:

5 Q You never worked for Who's Who World Wide, did you?

6 A No, sir.

7 Q For Sterling Who's Who?

8 A No, sir.

9 Q Had you ever been in the offices?

10 A I've been in the building in which the office was

11 located. I was not physically in their offices.

12 Q Which building, Lake Success?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q But you've never been inside?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q You are not then specifically familiar with the

17 business policies that Mr. Gordon had; is that correct?

18 A That's correct, I'm not familiar.

19 Q Now, in 1993, January, or early 1993, after you

20 signed your cooperation agreement, you took ads with the

21 postal service in Newsday and the New York Times to

22 interview people who worked in Who's Who?

23 A I did not take ads with the postal service.
24 Q The postal servic e took ads?
25 A No, sir.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4578
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 Q Who took the ads?

2 A I took the ads.

3 Q In the paper?

4 A Yes.

5 Q That was to get people to come in to apply for the

6 jobs out of Who's Who, correct?

7 A From previous Who's Who and current Who's Whos, yes,

8 sir.

9 Q You sat down while you were cooperating with the

10 government and met with all sorts of individuals about

11 possible employment at your Who's Who, right?

12 A At a proposed Who's Who, yes, sir.

13 Q At a proposed.

14 Once again, you were misrepresenting yourself to

15 people, right?

16 A No, sir.

17 Q You actually had people come to do an interview with

18 you for a job that didn't exist?

19 A No, sir, this was a government investigation acting

20 in conjunction with the government in the posture we took.

21 Q So that was okay to make a people waste an hour of

22 their time interviewing with you for a job that didn't

23 exist?
24 A That was an interview in the investigation.
25 Q Was this Garden City?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4579
Watstein-cross/Jenks


1 A Two separate occasions.

2 Q Did the postal department provide you with scripts

3 you would use in talking with these people?

4 A No, sir.

5 Q You didn't need a script, you knew what to ask them?

6 A In general, I knew what to ask them, yes, sir.

7 MR. JENKS: Your Honor, I have no further

8 questions.

9 THE COURT: All right.

10 CROSS-EXAMINATION

11 MR. NELSON:

12 Q Mr. West, I would like to clarify or go over a couple

13 of things about the operation of your business Who's Who

14 in United States Executives, Inc.

15 I believe you told Mr. Jenks, and correct me if

16 I'm wrong, that your company sent solicitation letters to

17 potential customers. Is that correct?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q And you were the author of those letters, that is

20 right?

21 A In the majority, yes, sir.

22 Q And in the merits you authored, am I correct, you

23 stated to the prospective customers that they had been
24 reviewed by a selection committee?
25 A There were many letters. It's possible one or two of

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4580
Watstein-cross/Nelson


1 those letters it was stated that way, yes, sir.

2 Q And in those letters you specifically indicated, am I

3 correct, that there was specific people on the selection

4 committee such as Jim Moore, the vice-president of

5 Citibank and John Finnell, a former Assistant Attorney

6 General?

7 A Finnell, I previously testified to that.

8 THE COURT: How is that spelled?

9 MR. NELSON: F-I-N-N-E-L-L.

10 BY MR. NELSON:

11 Q Now, would I be correct in stating that you had met

12 those people during the course of your lifetime but

13 neither of those individuals were on any selection

14 committee for Who's Who of United States Executives; is

15 that right?

16 A No, sir, that is not correct.

17 Q Oh, they were on a selection committee?

18 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no.

19 Q Were they on the selection committee you wrote the

20 letters on about or not?

21 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no. One

22 was and one wasn't, if that is acceptable to you.

23 Q One was for one day or two days?
24 A For a substantial period of time as I previously
25 testified up until the investigation of the posta l

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4581
Watstein-cross/Nelson


1 department.

2 Q And did he review people who were going to be members

3 of Who's Who in the United States Executives?

4 A No, sir, he performed no useful function in that

5 category.

6 Q Didn't exist?

7 A What didn't exist?

8 Q There was no real selection committee?

9 A As a functional basis, you are correct.

10 Q You also told people in these letters there was

11 somebody by the name of Thorton Rockefeller and another

12 person by the name of Harlan Carnegie?

13 A Yes, sir, I already answered that people.

14 Q Neither of these people?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q Am I correct once the letters came in they would be

17 given to the people in the sales department for purposes

18 of calling up potential customers?

19 A No, sir.

20 Q Well, did the people respond to those letters by some

21 kind of a ballot of some kind?

22 A They completed an application, sir.

23 Q Was that application sent back to the company?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q You would then give that application to the sales

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4582
Watstein-cross/Nelson


1 staff for purposes of calling prospective members; is that

2 right?

3 A That was not the next step, sir.

4 Q Well, they came back, didn't they?

5 A I'm sorry, sir?

6 Q The applications would come back; is that correct?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q Would they be given to the sales managers?

9 A That was not the next step, sir.

10 Q Would they be given to you?

11 A On some occasions.

12 Q Okay.

13 They eventually were given to the sales managers;

14 is that correct?

15 A Yes, sir. Eventually, yes, sir.

16 Q And the sales managers would then give them to the

17 sales staff; is that right?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q Now, am I correct that in your company there was a

20 script or a presentation that was utilized by the sales

21 staff when they spoke to the prospective customers who had

22 sent in the applications?

23 A Actually numerous scripts, sir.
24 Q And you were the author of those scripts; is that
25 right?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4583
Watstein-cross/Nelson


1 A In the majority. There were other authors but I take

2 full responsibility.

3 Q You made many misrepresentations in those sales

4 scripts; is that correct?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q The sales managers who were employed by you and would

7 I be correct in stating there were a number of different

8 sales mana gers employed by you and were paid compensation

9 by you; is that correct?

10 A By the company, that's correct, sir.

11 Q Am I correct, in addition to receiving a salary, the

12 sales managers also received an override commission on the

13 sales made by the members of the sales staff?

14 A In general, that is correct, sir.

15 Q So I would be correct in stating that you gave your

16 sales managers an incentive by way of this commission to

17 make sure that every or as many applicants, no matter what

18 their qualifications would be accepted; is that correct?

19 A I think that is a substantially accurate statement.

20 Q Thank you.

21 Would I be correct in stating, I believe you

22 previously testified, that the directory that you --

23 withdrawn.
24 Am I correct that one of the things that you were
25 selling to people were their inclusion in a directory



OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4584
Watstein-cross/Nelson


1 which they could purchase?

2 A That's partially correct, sir.

3 Q Am I correct that a large number of people to whom

4 you were selling a directory and their names were supposed

5 to be included in that directory, did not have their names

6 included in that directory?

7 A Yes, because of the computer failure. Yes, sir.

8 Q You sent out, based on publication at some point in

9 time, a directory that didn't include a large number of

10 people who applied?

11 Yes or no?

12 A You have to define "large number" for me, sir.

13 Q Well, were you aware of the fact that Inspector

14 Biegelman in a sworn complaint for which he arrested you

15 conducted a survey with American Express based upon your

16 customers in 1990 who purchased via American Express prior

17 to your being cancelled by American Express and discovered

18 based upon that survey of 91 people who used their

19 American Express card who purchased your registry to have

20 their name included in their registry, only one person

21 ever had their name in any of your registries? Were you

22 aware of that?

23 A No, sir.
24 Q Did you ever read the complaint that Inspector
25 Biegelman arrested you upon?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4585
Watstein-cross/Nelson


1 A I didn't recall seeing that in the complaint, sir.

2 Some of the complaint may have been redacted when I

3 received it.

4 MR. NELSON: May I have just one moment, Your

5 Honor?

6 THE COURT: Yes.

7 BY MR. NELSON:

8 Q I would like to show you page 31 of 30-519-Q. I

9 would ask you to look at the first page of the document.

10 Is this the complai nt in the case you were

11 arrested on, United States versus Steven Samuel Watstein?

12 A I can't tell from all the papers. It appears to be

13 the complaint. It's the cover page of the complaint.

14 Q I would like you to look at page 31, paragraph F

15 entitled "the victims," turning to the second sentence.

16 Am I correct that it states in the sworn

17 complaint by Inspector Marty Biegelman that many customers

18 never received the directory they ordered and thousands of

19 customers have complained and demanded their money back

20 from the company. American Express has advised that

21 approximately 91 randomly selected complaints who made a

22 purchase from the company during the time that the second

23 edition of Who's Who in United States Executives was being
24 sold, only one was listed in this edition which was
25 published in March of 1990.

OWEN M. W ICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4586
Watstein-cross/Nelson


1 Does it state that in Inspector Biegelman's sworn

2 complaint?

3 Yes or no?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q And am I correct that when you were arrested you were

6 provided with a copy of that complaint?

7 A At the time of my arrest, I did not read that

8 paragraph, sir. This was the first time I was aware of

9 the American Express survey.

10 Q Did you review it with the three different lawyers

11 you said you had retained over the course of the two-year

12 investigation who you had paid hundreds of thousands of

13 dollars to represent you?

14 A I certainly missed that paragraph as I just testified

15 up until and including today.

16 Q Did any of those lawyers who were paid hundreds of

17 thousands of dollars to represent you to get you six

18 months detention, ever wind up explain ing to you whatever

19 was in that complaint?

20 A In substance they did, sir. I missed that one

21 paragraph, sir.

22 Q Would I be correct in stating that that is a true

23 statement in the complaint that a large number of the
24 people who paid to be inside of your registry never even
25 had their names included?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4587
Watstein-cross/Nelson


1 A I previously asked you to define "large number." I

2 believe it was a substantial number, in my judgment.

3 Q Do you believe Inspector Biegelman was telling the

4 truth in that sworn complaint --

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q -- That less than one point were actually included in

7 that registry in that review?

8 A In that sample size, yes, I'm sure they were telling

9 the truth.

10 Q And I believe you testified that with respect to the

11 registries themselves that eventually did get published, a

12 large number of those registries were never sent to the

13 people who purchased them; is that right?

14 A No, sir.

15 Q Were registries not sent to quite a number of people?

16 A Yes. Quite a number would be an accurate phrase, not

17 a large number.

18 Q When you pled guilty you acknowledged that a large

19 number were not sent to people who paid for them?

20 A The phraseology was large number or quite a number,

21 but the phraseology is substantially accurate.

22 Q Considering the fact that a lot of people didn't get

23 their names included and they didn't get their registries,
24 a lot of people complained and asked for refunds; isn't
25 that right?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4588
Watstein-cross/Nelson


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q With respect to those refunds , I believe you

3 testified that you actually gave commissions to people in

4 your company to not give refunds to people, that was a

5 policy in your company?

6 A Sir, the policy was to attempt to motivate people to

7 continue their membership.

8 Q By lying to them about the fact that you're not going

9 to give refunds and to give commissions to your employees

10 to not give those refunds, was that part of your policy?

11 MR. WHITE: Objection.

12 THE COURT: Yes, sustained.

13 Please lower your voice.

14 MR. NELSON: Yes, Your Honor, I'm getting loud.

15 MR. WHITE: My objection is that he interrupted

16 the witness' answer.

17 MR. NELSON: I'll withdraw the question.

18 MR. WHITE: Can the witness answer the previous

19 question?

20 MR. NELSON: I'll withdraw it.

21 THE COURT: Not if it is withdrawn.

22 MR. WHITE: He's withdrawing it too .

23 MR. NELSON: I'll withdraw that too.
24 BY MR. NELSON:
25 Q Am I correct, Mr. West, that your prior testimony was

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4589
Watstein-cross/Nelson


1 that at some point in time you gave commissions to

2 employees of yours when they would not give refunds to

3 customers who were complaining and asking for refunds?

4 A That isn't accurately phrased, sir. That is not

5 accurately phrased.

6 Q Did you give commissions at any point in time to

7 employees of yours who were not providing refunds to

8 customers?

9 Yes or no?

10 A That's not accurate, the phrase. I can't give you an

11 answer to that the way you phrase your question.

12 THE COURT: Is this a good time to take a break?

13 MR. NELSON: Yes, Judge.

14 THE COURT: All right. Members of the jury,

15 we'll recess until 10 a.m. tomorrow morning.

16 Please do not discuss the case among yourselves

17 or anyone else. I'm sure the people at home have long ago

18 stopped asking you questions or they might be saying, when

19 are you going to get through with this case? Maybe that's

20 what they are asking you. In any event, please tell them

21 you're a trial juror in the United States District Court

22 and you're going to stick it out to the end.

23 Keep an open mind. Come to no conclusions. We
24 will recess until 10 a.m. tomorrow.
25 Have a nice evening.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4590
Watstein-cross/Nelson


1 (Jury exits.)

2 THE COURT: You will have to be back prior to

3 10 a.m. tomorrow morning, Mr. Watstein.

4 THE WITNESS: Yes.

5 THE COURT: You may step out now.

6 (Witness excused.)

7 THE COURT: What is the government's sche dule?

8 MR. WHITE: I'm assuming before I answer that --

9 THE COURT: How many other people will

10 cross-examine Mr. Watstein?

11 MR. TRABULUS: I will.

12 MR. NEVILLE: And I will.

13 MR. GEDULDIG: I think I'll have a relatively

14 short cross-examination, Your Honor.

15 THE COURT: Three more.

16 MR. WHITE: Three more plus Mr. Nelson who just

17 started.

18 THE COURT: Yes.

19 MR. WHITE: I think after Mr. Watstein we'll have

20 Marilyn Price.

21 THE COURT: How do you spell that?

22 MR. WHITE: P-R-I-C-E, and Philip Westcott,

23 W-E-S-T-C-O-T-T. It sounds like we'll consume the day.
24 MR. LEE: May I ask if there is another name for
25 Mr. Price that may have been used?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4591

1 I just wanted to make sure.

2 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, may I put two other

3 things on the record. At lunchtime we checked with

4 respect to the tapes made by Mr. West of Oxford Who's Who

5 employees. The postal inspector who was in charge of that

6 investigation now thinks there might be a couple of tapes

7 and he's retrieving the file from the coded file section.

8 THE COURT: Have him here tomorrow morning.

9 MR. WHITE: I'm sorry?

10 THE COURT: Have them here tomorrow morning.

11 MR. WHITE: I don't know if that's possible but

12 he's trying to do that.

13 THE COURT: All right.

14 MR. WHITE: The other thing, I think is it

15 inconsequential but I wanted to make sure it is clear. At

16 the bench this morning I indicated that I wasn't at the

17 U.S. Attorney's Office when Mr. West's case was closed.

18 That's not correct. I wasn't there when he pled guilty, I

19 was there when he was sentenced, for what it is worth.

20 THE COURT: You have clarified it.

21 MR. WHITE: Thank you.

22 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, one other thing. We

23 believe Mr. Watstein-West testified in litigation brought
24 by Reed Elsevier, relating to things about his company and
25 we have a reason to believe some of the testimony he gave

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4592

1 there might have been inconsistent with what he said

2 today. I don't know if the government has copies of any

3 of that testimony in their possession but if they do it

4 would be 3500 material.

5 MR. WHITE: I don't have any such thing. I'm

6 wondering why Mr. Trabulus says if it is inconsistent

7 would have reason to doubt it.

8 MR. TRABULUS: There might have been a statement

9 in one of Mr. Biegelman's affidavits that appears to be

10 inconsistent, but I'll look into it further.

11 THE COURT: If they don't have it you will have

12 to get it yourselves.

13 (Proceedings adjourned.)

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23
24
25

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4593

1 I-N-D-E-X

2
W-I-T-N-E-S-S-E-S
3
PAGE LINE
4 W I L M A P I N C H A M..................... 4313 13
DIRECT EXAMINATION............................... 4313 22
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4323 1
CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4332 8
6 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4352 19
REDIRECT EXAMINATION............................. 4363 1
7 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 4367 13
RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 4374 23
8
S T E V E N W A T S T E I N.................. 4379 9
9 DIRECT EXAMINATION............................... 43 80 1
CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4416 19
10 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4466 6
CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4579 10
11

12 E-X-H-I-B-I-T-S

13
Government's Exhibit 3-D received in evidence.... 4316 3
14 Government's Exhibit 3-B received in evidence.... 4319 19

15 Defendant's Exhibit AK received in evidence...... 4474 23
Defendant's Exhibit AL received in evidence...... 4520 11
16 Defendant's Exhibit AM received in evidence...... 4564 6
Defendant's Exhibit AN received in evidence...... 4574 23
17

18

19

20

21

22

23
24
25

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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This site is concerned with the Who's Who Worldwide Registry tragedy, and the double scandal of government and judical corruption in one of the dirtiest trials of the twentieth century and the concomitant news media blackout regarding this incredible story.

Sixteen weeks of oft-explosive testimony, yet not a word in any of 1200 news archives. This alone supports the claim that this was a genuinely dirty trial; in fact, one of the dirtiest federal trials of the 20th century.

Show your support for justice, for exoneration of the innocent, and perhaps most importantly, government accountability, by urgently contacting your Senator, the White House, and the U.S. Department of Justice.