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5619
5621

1 M O R N I N G S E S S I O N

2

3 (The following takes place in the absence of the

4 jury.)

5 THE COURT: I remind the male persons present not

6 to use the men's bathroom on this floor. It is a while

7 since I reminded you. It is right across from the jury

8 room. You are not to use it. Use the bathroom upstairs.

9 And with that friendly greeting I say good

10 morning.

11 THE CLERK: Jury entering.

12 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the

13 courtroom.)

14 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury.

15 Please be seated.

16 Again my compliments, you are getting better as

17 we go along. If we keep this trial going from to August

18 and September, you will be here before I am. You will

19 never see the sunlight, either at morning or at night.

20 You may proceed.

21 MS. SCOTT: The government calls Thomas Skonie.

22 THE CLERK: Please rise and raise your right

23 hand.
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5622

1 T H O M A S R. S K O N I E ,

2 called as a witness, having been first

3 duly sworn, was examined and testified

4 as follows:

5

6 THE CLERK: Thank you. Please be seated.

7 Please state a nd spell your full name for the

8 record.

9 THE WITNESS: My name is Thomas R. Skonie,

10 S K O N I E.

11

12 DIRECT EXAMINATION

13 BY MS. SCOTT:

14 Q Good morning, Mr. Skonie.

15 A Good morning.

16 Q Can you tell us where you live?

17 A Naperville, Illinois.

18 Q What do you do for a living in Illinois?

19 A I am a manufactures representative in the housewares

20 electronics, business.

21 Q What is the name of the company you work for?

22 A The name of the company is Walter Nye, N Y E, &

23 Company, Inc.
24 Q And what is your position with Walter Nye?
25 A President of the company.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5623
Skonie-direct/Scott


1 Q Can you describe for us briefly what your

2 responsibilities are?

3 A We represent manufacturers in the housewares and

4 electronics business, we are their contact sales agents,

5 most of these companies do not use a sales force, they use

6 us as an exclusive agent to represent people in their

7 territory, Wallgreens, Sears, Wards, and we are

8 compensated with a commission rate for doing that.

9 Q How long have you been the president of Walter Nye?

10 A I have been the president for 15 years.

11 Q Now, have you ever had any dealings with a company

12 called Who's Who Worldwide?

13 A Yes, I have.

14 Q Did you eventually make a purchase from that company?

15 A Yes, I did.

16 Q What did you buy?

17 A I was nominated to be a member in Who's Who Worldwide

18 and sent in an application fee, for which I received back

19 a plaque.

20 That's pretty much what I got.

21 Q Going back to your first contact, how were you first

22 contacted by the company?

23 A I receive d a letter or solicitation in the mail
24 saying I had been nominated to be in Who's Who Worldwide.
25 And there was a short application or stub to send back, if

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5624
Skonie-direct/Scott


1 I was interested, which I completed. I sent back, and I

2 was at a later date, shortly after contacted by their

3 representative on the telephone.

4 Q Now, going back to the letter, do you remember

5 approximately when that arrived?

6 A It is about five years ago, so it would be 1994, in

7 that area.

8 Q I will show you Government's Exhibit 67-D, as in

9 Daniel, for Identification.

10 Do you recognize that?

11 (Handed to the witness.)

12 A Yes, I do.

13 Q What is that?

14 A That's the short response that I returned to them

15 with my signature on it saying that I was interested, or

16 would like to be included, or would like some more

17 information. It was a no obligation thing.

18 MS. SCOTT: I offer Government's Exhibit 67-D.

19 THE COURT: Any objection?

20 MR. TRABULUS: No.

21 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 67-D, for Dog,

22 in evidence.

23 Q Now, Mr. Skonie, if you take a look at the lower
24 right-hand corner of that postcard, do you see a code
25 there in blue letters?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5625
Skonie-direct/Scott


1 A Yes, I do.

2 Q Can you tell us what that code says?

3 A GA group FM.

4 Q F as in Frank, M as in Michael?

5 A That's right.

6 Q If you turn the postcard over can you read us the

7 postmark on the back?

8 A It is post marked --

9 THE COURT: We don't know these names, so you

10 have to spell them when you get to them.

11 A Elk, E L K, Grove, G R O V E, village, Illinois,

12 September 10th, 1993.

13 Q Now, you mentioned that you received a telephone call

14 from the company?

15 A That's correct. After I filled this out, a person

16 from Who's Who called me up, and we spoke about becoming a

17 member.

18 Q Do you remember if this person was a man or a woman?

19 A A woman.

20 Q And can you tell us what this woman told you about

21 the company and the memberships?

22 A She told me that I had been nominated to be in Who's

23 Who. I asked her whom I had been nominated by.
24 She told me that the nomination was confidential,
25 and she could only tell me that I had in fact been

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5626
Skonie-direct/Scott


1 nominated.

2 She said it was a good organization, exclusive,

3 you know, very nice to be in, prestigious. Would I like

4 to join?

5 And I said, yes.

6 Q What, if anything, did she say to you about how

7 members in general were selected?

8 A They were nominated by other people.

9 Q What were you told you would get for your money if

10 you purchased a membership?

11 A I was to get a plaque. And I was to get membership

12 in this group. The membership was the key thing for me.

13 Q Now, of all the things that were said to you about

14 this membership, what was the most important thing that

15 led you to make a purchase?

16 A Well, in the business I am in, which is the sales

17 business, it is largely a business, or a great part of it

18 is a business of contacts. The way we grow our business

19 is by meeting new people who may be in positions to, or be

20 affiliated with companies which would allow us to

21 represent them or sell their goods for them. It is an

22 important part of the business. Most of the new lines or

23 manufacturers are ones we acquire from networking from
24 people we know, or know us, or who we have represented or
25 whom we had business relationships with.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5627
Skonie-direct/Scott


1 So, first of all, to be nominated, I assumed that

2 because I had represented several large companies at that

3 time, very large companies, and had good relationships

4 with the presidents of those companies at that time, it

5 was possible one of them had nominated. She would not

6 tell me who nominated me. But my assumption was that one

7 of them nominated me.

8 It would be bad for my business to have someone

9 like that nominate me and then for me to refuse it, and

10 then to assume I wasn't interested. That would have been

11 an endorsement.

12 The other thing was it would be a forum for me to

13 meet and grow new business. Perhaps I could be affiliated

14 with a company that we could represent and sell products

15 for them. It is an extremely large part of our business,

16 that's networking process.

17 Q Now, how, if at all, did your belief that you had

18 been nominated relate to your perception that this was a

19 networking tool that you could use?

20 A Well, she -- I specifically asked her how I had been

21 selected to be in this. She said I was nominated. It was

22 my assumption that I was nominated by someone I knew and

23 it would be a good thing for me.
24 It was also, she implied as part of this thing
25 you would get to network with people, or meet other

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5628
Skonie-direct/Scott


1 people . And I assume that that would be very good for my

2 business, too. It seemed at the time that it would be a

3 positive thing.

4 MR. SCHOER: Objection, Judge, I don't believe

5 that that answer is responsive to the question.

6 THE COURT: First of all, please do not make any

7 statements except objection.

8 MR. SCHOER: Objection.

9 THE COURT: Now, I would have asked you what the

10 ground of the objection is, so no harm was done.

11 Your objection is that it is not responsive?

12 MR. SCHOER: Not responsive to the question that

13 was asked.

14 THE COURT: No. You are overruled.

15 Motion denied.

16 Q Now, if in fact your name had been obtained not by

17 nomination, but from a mailing list, would it have

18 affected your decision to make the purchase?

19 A I would not have purchased.

20 Q Why is that?

21 A Mailing lists by their very n ature are general. I

22 have sold consumer products to direct response companies

23 for 25 years. I am familiar with the mailing list
24 process. And mailing lists are just exactly what the word
25 implies. It is a list of the people sent out, and it is a

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5629
Skonie-direct/Scott


1 numbers game. And the more you send out hopefully the

2 more responses you would get. And I would have not

3 partaken in something like that.

4 Q Now, the membership you purchased, do you remember

5 how much you paid for it?

6 A It was very expensive. It was in the high 200 dollar

7 range, 280, 290. It was expensive.

8 Q How did you pay for it?

9 A A credit card.

10 Q How did you give your credit card information to the

11 company?

12 A Over the telephone.

13 Q I will show you Government Exhi bit 67-B as in Baker

14 for Identification.

15 Do you recognize that?

16 A Yes, I do.

17 Q What is it?

18 A The receipt or invoice from my Who's Who

19 application.

20 MS. SCOTT: I offer 67-B, as in Baker.

21 THE COURT: Any objection?

22 MR. TRABULUS: No.

23 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 67-B, as in
24 Baker, in evidence.
25 (Government's Exhibit 67-B received in evidence.)

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5630
Skonie-direct/Scott


1 Q Does that invoice show the terms of your purchase?

2 A Yes, it does.

3 Q How much money does it show you paid?

4 A $297.

5 Q Can you tell us the date on the invoice?

6 A 9/21/93.

7 Q September 21st, 1993?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q Mr. Skonie, did you receive a plaque?

10 A Yes, I did.

11 Q Did you receive a directory from th e company?

12 A No, I did not.

13 Q Did you receive any communications from the company

14 regarding the directory?

15 A Shortly after I received the plaque the company

16 called me back, and asked me if I wanted to purchase a

17 directory. And I believe they also had computer version,

18 a CD-ROM version. At which time I said, no.

19 I became kind of agitated, because I assumed that

20 when I joined it I would know who the other members were.

21 And it struck me that the process was becoming one where

22 it was just a contest to continually sell me something.

23 Q So, did you agree to purchase the directory?
24 A No, I didn't purchase the directory. At that time I
25 expressed my agitation with the person who called me on

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5631
Skonie-direct/Scott


1 the phone and asked let me not to call me any more. I

2 didn't think it was a very good deal.

3 Q Did you see any letters from the company after that?

4 A Yes, I did.

5 We received -- I receive all the mail for

6 Mr. Nye, the founder of our company, Walter Nye. And

7 sometimes subsequent to that Mr. Nye received a letter in

8 the mail virtually identical to the letter I received.

9 And I responded for Mr. Nye that he was not interested

10 because he had been dead for ten years. And I also

11 responded that they should clean up their mailing list,

12 and that he obviously having been deceased that long, was

13 not a candidate for Who's Who.

14 Q Now, this letter you received from -- you say it was

15 identical to the letter you received?

16 A It was a different heading. One was worldwide. One

17 was Sterling. But it was the same type of letter. And I

18 was so agitated from the previous experience with the

19 company, that when I saw this I wrote them a letter saying

20 this was not a very good thing to do.

21 Q Now, the second letter, the letter addressed to

22 Walter Nye, was that on Sterling Who's Who letterhead?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And the original purchase you made was from Who's Who
25 Worldwide?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5632
Skonie-direct/Scott


1 A Yes.

2 Q And how is it you knew that the second letter was

3 connected with -- withdrawn.

4 A It was identical in any way, every way with the

5 letter I had received.

6 Q Did you receive anything else from either Sterling

7 Who's Who or Who's Who Worldwide after that?

8 A No.

9 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Skonie. No further

10 questions.

11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

12 THE COURT: Cross-examination.

13 MR. TRABULU S: Thank you.

14

15 CROSS-EXAMINATION

16 BY MR. TRABULUS:

17 Q Good morning, Mr. Skonie. My name is Norman

18 Trabulus, and I represent the gentleman seated next to

19 me.

20 A Good morning.

21 Q Mr. Skonie, I believe you indicated you became

22 agitated at a certain point; is that correct?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q And that was when you were contacted to pay
25 additional money for the directory; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5633
Skonie-cross/Trabulus


1 A That's correct.

2 Q And before that you had received the plaque; is that

3 correct?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And at that point you were not agitated were you?

6 A I was not agitated, but I felt a little sheepish

7 about buying myself a plaque.

8 Q And that was -- at that point in time when you felt a

9 lit tle sheepish, you had learned nothing about the company

10 or its product other than what you had been told over the

11 phone at that point, correct?

12 A I had learned that I had been nominated to be a

13 member.

14 Q What I meant is there was nothing knew you had

15 learned between the time you agreed to make the purchase

16 and the time you became sheepish; is that correct?

17 A I had not been contacted in that time period, no.

18 Q Is it correct to say that you felt sheepish on your

19 own, nothing happened to make you feel sheepish from the

20 company, it was a change in your own feelings; is that

21 right?

22 A That's true.

23 Q When you got the plaque, did you hang it up?
24 A No.
25 Q The plaque was basically the way it was described to

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5634
Skonie-cross/Trabulus


1 you on the phone, was it not?

2 A It was a plaque.

3 Q So, you feeling sheepish was basically a way you

4 yourself felt after feeling that way after making the

5 order; is that correct?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q You did not ask for a refund, did you?

8 A No.

9 Q And do you know what would have happened had you

10 asked for a refund?

11 A No, I don't.

12 Q You mentioned, sir, that you yourself are in the

13 sales business; is that correct?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q And your company is paid by commission?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q And are your individual salesmen paid by commission?

18 A Some are and some aren't.

19 Q Certainly there is nothing improper or inherently

20 fraudulent by paying salespeople by commission?

21 A Of course not.

22 Q Some people have a quota to make in order to keep

23 their job?
24 A No .
25 Q Now, I think you told us the woman to whom you spoke,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5635
Skonie-cross/Trabulus


1 whose name you don't recall, told you you had been

2 nominated; is that correct?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q And you say you assumed that it might have been by

5 one of the other -- one of the people with whom you had a

6 business relationship; is that correct?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q That was your assumption; is that correct?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q It is not something she told you; is that correct?

11 A No.

12 Q It is correct, correct? When you said no, it is

13 ambiguous, my question's fault?

14 THE COURT: If you keep going rapidly and he does

15 not catch up to you, the "no" would not fit into the right

16 question.

17 A I asked her who nominated me. She couldn't tell me.

18 THE COURT: She didn't tell you it was a business

19 associate or anything like that?

20 THE WITNESS: No, she did not.

21 Q Mr. Skonie, did she tell you yourself, you yourself

22 upon becoming a member would receive the right, or

23 opportunity to nominate people like yourself? Do you
24 recall that?
25 A I don't recall that.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5636
Skonie-cross/Trabulus


1 Q Do you recall if she told you something to the effect

2 that you would be able to nominate up to two or three

3 people a way through a nomination ballot?

4 A I don't recall that.

5 Q Do you recall whether she told you that if you did

6 something like that it would -- you have to be careful

7 because you couldn't be sure that the person you nominated

8 would actually become a member?

9 A I don't recall that.

10 Q Did she tell you or did you merely assume that if you

11 became a member, the person who nominated you or the

12 people who nominated you would find out?

13 A I assumed that.

14 Q Now, is it also assumed that when you joined the

15 membership, you would learn who the other members were?

16 That was an assumption on your part?

17 A It is an assumption. To me it was a reasonable

18 assumption.

19 Q Certainly, if one purchased the directory -- in the

20 conversation with this lady who spoke to you, did she

21 discuss with you the purchase of the directory?

22 A After I joined.

23 Q Well, at the time that you joined, did you understand
24 that the $290 -- I am sorry, is that what it was, the $290
25 you were paying included the directory?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5637
Skonie-cross/Trabulus


1 A No. Bu t I never joined anything where I didn't know

2 who the other members were. I mean, as part of the

3 membership.

4 Q You understood the $290 that was due at that point

5 did not include the directory; is that correct?

6 A I didn't know whether it included or didn't include

7 it. I was never told either way.

8 Q Well, do you recall that she told you that there

9 would be an additional charge when the directory was ready

10 to be shipped?

11 A No, I don't recall her saying that. No, she didn't.

12 Q When you received the invoice, 67-B, do you have that

13 before you, sir?

14 A Uh-huh.

15 Q Did you notice the blue portion on it which talked

16 about the additional payment?

17 A No. I didn't notice it.

18 Q Now, in terms of what she described the organization

19 as being, you certainly saw yourself as being a suitable

20 person as being included in the membership, in terms of

21 where you are in your position with the company and its

22 business?

23 A I wouldn't have joined if I didn't.
24 Q And you perceived it -- withdrawn.
25 Do you know whether or not you were actually

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5638
Skonie-cross/Trabulus


1 included in the directory, did anybody ever tell you that?

2 A No one has ever told me.

3 One of them is Defendant's Exhibit Q. And I am

4 going to direct you to page 820, and I will point to

5 something.

6 Do you see there an entry for yourself?

7 (Handed to the witness.)

8 A Yes, I do.

9 Q And also Defendant's Exhibit P at page 737, also an

10 entry for yourself.

11 Do you see it?

12 A Yes, I do.

13 Q Would you read over those entries and see if they are

14 correct?

15 A This one?

16 Q Either one.

17 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

18 proceedings.)

19 A It's correct.

20 Q You were spoken to concerning a CD-ROM?

21 A It's correct.

22 Q In your business, I assume you are familiar with

23 CD-ROMs, are you not?
24 A Absolutely.
25 Q And you are aware that a CD-ROM can be utilized to

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5639
Skonie-cross/Trabulus


1 access information on it by any one of a whole different

2 variety of parameters?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q Now, what are the different type of businesses that

5 you would have liked to have networked with had you

6 utilized what was being told to you?

7 A People who manufacture in the electronics and

8 housewares businesses.

9 Q Okay.

10 I will show you my laptop computer which has

11 Defendant 's Exhibit S in it. It has something on the

12 screen. Next to, full text search, it has housewares.

13 There is a number there, number 43.

14 Are you familiar with this type of screen set up?

15 A Uh-huh.

16 Q Yes?

17 A Yes, I am.

18 Q Okay.

19 You see a bunch of names here?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And I will just pick one at random. It says,

22 Melitta, M E L I T T A, U.S.A.

23 A It is Melitta.
24 Q You are familiar with the company?
25 A Sure am.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5640
Skonie-cross/Trabulus


1 Q Is that a company you possibly wanted to network

2 with?

3 A It could be.

4 Q The person listed there is a forecast analysis,

5 analyst for the company; is that correct?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Do you see any there listing you wish for me to pull

8 up?

9 A No. I think I understand the concept that you are

10 dealing with.

11 Q Okay.

12 Here is one for Rick Burman, B U R M A N,

13 marketing manager of Regent Sheffield, S H E F F I E L D,

14 a manufacturer of cutlery and housewares.

15 Have you heard of that company?

16 A Yes, I have.

17 Q Is that somebody you conceivably would want to

18 network with?

19 A Yes, it is.

20 Q Now, when you decided not to get the CD-ROM or the

21 directory, you did not know whether or not they were

22 houseware companies, or people in the housewares industry

23 listed in them, did you?
24 A I didn't know one way or another. But I don't think
25 that's the point.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5641
Skonie-cross/Trabulus


1 MR. TRABULUS: Move to strike, your Honor.

2 THE COURT: Yes. Motion granted.

3 Strike out t he answer after I didn't know one way

4 or another.

5 Mr. Skonie, listen to the question. Please try

6 to answer responsively.

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

8 THE COURT: Most of the questions call for a yes

9 or no answer.

10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

11 THE COURT: If you cannot answer yes or no, just

12 say I can't answer yes or no.

13 THE WITNESS: Okay.

14 THE COURT: And if the government thinks any of

15 your answers are incomplete, they will have a chance to

16 ask you later on. Okay?

17 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

18 Q So, it is fair to say that you did not give the

19 directory or the CD-ROM a chance for use in networking; is

20 that correct?

21 A I did not purchase it.

22 Q Now, when you told you were nominated were you told

23 by one person or a committee, or was that detail not
24 supplied?
25 A My recollection is tha t I was nominated by a person.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5642
Skonie-cross/Trabulus


1 Q That's just your recollection; is that correct?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Are you certain about that?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Before you were told you were just nominated; is that

6 correct?

7 A I was nominated. And I asked who nominated me. And

8 the person said we cannot give the name of the person. It

9 is confidential. So that would indicate to me that it was

10 a person.

11 Q Okay.

12 When you received the -- withdrawn.

13 Any other type of industries besides housewares

14 you might have wanted to network with?

15 A It's possible.

16 Q Now, if you had networked with anybody, the odds of

17 you networking with the person who nominated you would be

18 quite small, would it not?

19 A I don't understand that quest ion. If someone

20 nominated me, I am assuming I would know them already, and

21 would not necessarily need to network with someone I knew

22 already.

23 Q Exactly, sir.
24 What I am getting at is that the people you were
25 looking to network with were not people you already knew;

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5643
Skonie-cross/Trabulus


1 is that correct?

2 A That's correct.

3 Q And they were not people who could have nominated

4 you; is that correct?

5 A That is correct.

6 Q So, as far as those people were concerned it made no

7 difference whether you were nominated by another

8 individual who was a member, or whether your name came

9 from another source, so long as the group of people,

10 yourself and those people, were suitable for a networking;

11 is that correct?

12 A I can't answer t hat in a yes or no manner.

13 Q And you did indicate that the prime reason that you

14 yourself became a member was with a view to networking; is

15 that correct?

16 A That was a reason. I didn't say it was the prime

17 reason.

18 MR. TRABULUS: I have no further questions.

19 THE COURT: Anything else?

20 MR. DUNN: Yes, your Honor.

21

22 CROSS-EXAMINATION

23 BY MR. DUNN:
24 Q Good morning, Mr. Skonie.
25 A Good morning.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5644
Skonie-cross/Dunn


1 Q My name is Thomas Dunn, obviously I am up here, so I

2 am one of the attorneys.

3 Mr. Skonie, in your business of sales, you want

4 to contact obviously people who are interested in your

5 product; is that correct?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q And you seem to have the special knowledge of mailing

8 lists; is that correct?

9 A I wouldn't say a special, but I have a knowledge of

10 mailing lists.

11 Q And in your business do you use mailing lists?

12 A Do we use them? No.

13 Q Never?

14 A Never.

15 Q Never have used them?

16 A No.

17 Q How many customers do you have?

18 A The total company, everyone combined, less than 50.

19 Q Less than 50 customers?

20 A Less than 50.

21 Q Do you know that there were 3,948 members of Who's

22 Who Worldwide in Illinois?

23 A No, I did not know that.
24 Q Did you know that -- you are in electronics, correct?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5645
Skonie-cross/Dunn


1 Q There were 1,126 members of Who's Who Worldwide in

2 electronics?

3 A No, I did not know that.

4 Q Did you know that there were over 6,700 members of

5 Who's Who Worldwide who had expertise in sales, did you

6 know that?

7 A I did not know that.

8 Q Your hobbies included fishing; is that correct?

9 A That is correct.

10 Q Did you know that there were 5,760 members of Who's

11 Who Worldwide whose main hobby was fishing?

12 A I did not know that.

13 Q Do you think if you had an opportunity to network

14 with people who were in electronics and who had a hobby of

15 fishing, that you might be able to establish an opening of

16 a door where business discussions may ensue?

17 A It's possible.

18 Q Now, when you joined Who's Who Worldwide, you spoke

19 to a woman; is that correct?

20 A That is correct.

21 Q Did you learn that her name was Marilyn Pierce?

22 A I don't recall her name.

23 Q Would it surprise you to know that Ms. Pierce is not
24 in this courtroom?
25 A No, it wouldn' t surprise me.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5646
Skonie-cross/Dunn


1 Q You wanted to join this organization, is that

2 correct?

3 A Obviously I wouldn't have joined it if I didn't want

4 to.

5 Q And you said that you didn't do anything with the

6 plaque; is that correct?

7 A That's correct. Eventually I threw the plaque a way.

8 Q Sir, you didn't do anything at all with the plaque

9 when you first got it?

10 A I put it on the side.

11 Q You had been told -- you had joined an organization

12 called Who's Who, correct? And you were told you were

13 going to get a plaque?

14 A Right.

15 Q Is that correct?

16 A That's right.

17 Q And you never did anything with that plaque?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q Is that right?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And when you spoke with the government , they spoke to

22 you about mailing lists; is that correct? They spoke to

23 you about mailing lists when you spoke to them; is that
24 correct?
25 A The term mailing list came up.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5647
Skonie-cross/Dunn


1 Q It came up when they questioned you; is that correct?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And that came up and also correspondence from the

4 government?

5 A I don't know if I received any correspondence, any

6 written correspondence.

7 Q You had phone conversations with them?

8 A They called me to invite me to come here, yes.

9 Q Did you ever fill out any kind of questionnaire that

10 they sent you?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And as you sit there now, you have no independent

13 recollection as to whether they asked you about mailing

14 lists?

15 A The term "mailing list" came up, yes.

16 Q Sir, isn't it a fact that when you were advised that

17 you were considered for Who's Who Worldwide that you were

18 pleased by that; isn't that correct?

19 A I wasn't displeased.

20 Q So you were pleased?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And you were pleased that you were going to become

23 part of an organization where you might get some
24 networking benefits; is that correct?
25 A That's correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5648
Skonie-cross/Dunn


1 MR. DUNN: I have no further questions.

2 MR. LEE: I have a couple of questions, your

3 Honor.

4

5 CROSS-EXAMINATION

6 BY MR. LEE:

7 Q Good morning, Mr. Skonie.

8 A Good morning.

9 Q My name is Winston Lee, L E E.

10 Q Mr. Skonie, when did you arrive in New York?

11 A I wear hearing aids, would you please speak into the

12 microphone.

13 Q How is this?

14 A A little better.

15 Q Do you hear me now, sir?

16 A Yes, I do.

17 Q When did you arrive in New York in connection with

18 this case?

19 A Last night.

20 Q Prior to coming here today, you had received at least

21 a questionnaire from the Postal Inspection Service about

22 this matter; is that right?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q And then you had some conversations with someone from
25 this table, perhaps Ms. Scott or Mr. White or Inspector

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5649
Skonie-cross/Lee


1 Pagano?

2 A That's correct.

3 Q When did that occur?

4 A I believe I had one telephone conversation with

5 Mr. Pagano, a telephone conversation with Ms. Scott, and I

6 met Ms. Scott this morning.

7 Q Was that the first time you spoke to someone in

8 person, Ms. Scott this morning?

9 A Yes.

10 Q From the government?

11 A Yes.

12 Q How long was that conversation?

13 A Over breakfast.

14 Q You sat down and had breakfast with her?

15 A Uh-huh.

16 Q Did she have any materials with her, paper, documents

17 to go over with you?

18 A Oh, yes.

19 Q Okay.

20 And that had been -- are you hear by subpoena,

21 sir?

22 A No.

23 Q Did you receive a subpoena?
24 A No.
25 Q Am I correct that that the first time you had an

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5650
Skonie-cross/Lee


1 opportunity to actually take a look at this registry that

2 Mr. Trabulus showed you was today, right?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q And that's the first opportunity of anyone ever

5 giving you to examine the registry; is that correct?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q Ms. Scott did not offer to show it to you, did she?

8 A No.

9 Q Or anyone else?

10 A No.

11 Q Did anyone from the government inform you as to the

12 number of people who are members of the registry, and who

13 they were? Anyone inform you of that?

14 A No.

15 Q So, the first time you had access to that

16 information, the first time somebody provided this

17 knowledge to you was somebody from the defense,

18 Mr. Trabulus, correct?

19 A That's right.

20 Q And the first time you had an opportunity to really

21 know what kind of value that you could get from the CD-ROM

22 was someone from the defense? Mr. Trabulus had to show it

23 to you, right? He showed you the CD-ROM up there; is that
24 correct?
25 A He showed me these books.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

565 1
Skonie-cross/Lee


1 Q Excuse me. And he discussed the CD-ROM with you,

2 right?

3 A He showed me the CD-ROM on the screen.

4 Q And there was an indication from you upon recognizing

5 certain names, at least in the hypothetical that you might

6 be interested in contacting those people? Didn't you say

7 that for networking purposes?

8 A The names were people in our business who may or may

9 not be of help to me in my business.

10 Q In your business?

11 A That's right.

12 Q And was -- were you ever given that opportunity by

13 anyone from the government to review the CD-ROM and kind

14 of just acclimate yourself to what was in it and what you

15 could do with it?

16 A Nobody showed me the CD-ROM.

17 Q Nobody did that either.

18 So, you had a conversation with Ms. Scott, and

19 did she do most -- she definitely -- it would be fair to

20 say that she had the questions in mind that she wanted to

21 clear up with you and speak to you about over breakfast;

22 is that correct -- let me withdraw the question. It

23 wasn't clear.
24 Did it appear to you that she definitely was
25 intent on covering some topics with you when she spoke to

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5652
Skonie-cross/Lee


1 you over breakfast?

2 A She told me what the experience would be like in the

3 courtroom; that I would be shown pieces of paper; I would

4 be asked questions. She had the paper that I had filled

5 out the questionnaire in her possession.

6 Q And she kind of went over it with you, kind of going

7 over points that she felt she wanted to go over with you;

8 is that correct?

9 A I wouldn't say she went over with me. She explained

10 to me the procedure here today.

11 Q She didn't do any of the things or tell you about the

12 things I just asked you about, what Mr. Trabulus asked you

13 about; is that correct?

14 A We did not discuss the CD-ROMs and the book.

15 Q And your expertise is what you told us. Have you

16 ever testified in a court of law, sir?

17 A Yes, I have.

18 Q In connection with what?

19 A I testified some years ago in a Securities and

20 Exchange Commission investigation.

21 Q Was that a criminal action?

22 A I beg your pardon?

23 Q Was it a criminal proceeding?
24 A I don't know. I am not a lawyer.
25 Q Are you aware that this is a criminal proceeding?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5653
Skonie-cross/Lee


1 A Yes.

2 Q And you are a witness in a case, right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Now, in that case, was there a substantial -- who

5 were you a witness for?

6 A I don't understand what you said.

7 Q Did you testify in that case, the securities case?

8 A Yes, I did.

9 Q All right.

10 And who were you a witness for?

11 MS. SCOTT: Objection.

12 THE COURT: Sustained.

13 Q Now, in that case, were you provided -- were you

14 provided with material to review prior to your testimony

15 in that other case?

16 MS. SCOTT: Objection.

17 THE COURT: Sustain. Desist from that other

18 case.

19 Q Mr. Skonie, did the thought ever occur to you, and

20 you can answer the question yes or no, did the thought

21 ever occur to you that the government was intentionally

22 withholding information from you that would be useful in

23 your testimony here?
24 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5654
Skonie-cross/Lee


1 Q Did the thought ever occur to you that they were only

2 feeding you what they wanted you to know so that you would

3 get the wrong or false exception --

4 A I take exception to that.

5 THE COURT: Excuse me.

6 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.

7 THE COURT: When you see counsel rise to her

8 feet, that's the red flag warning.

9 MS. SCOTT: I withdraw the objection.

10 THE COURT: Pardon me?

11 MS. SCOTT: I withdrew it, your Honor.

12 THE COURT: I will not let him answer that way

13 anyway. Do you want to object?

14 MS. SCOTT: Yes, your Honor.

15 THE COURT: Sustained.

16 When she rises to her feet you will know she is

17 making an objection, or thinking about it seriously, one

18 or the other.

19 THE WITNESS: Yes.

20 THE COURT: When she says "objection", don't

21 answer.

22 THE WITNESS: Yes.

23 Q You answered emphatically, absolutely not, and that
24 thought never occurred to you that they would leave you
25 with the false impression of what this company was? Did

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5655
Skonie-cross/Lee


1 that thought enter your mind?

2 A No.

3 MS. SCOTT: Objection.

4 THE COURT: Strike out the answer. Sustained.

5 Mr. Lee, desist. You covered the ground

6 sufficiently.

7 MR. LEE: No further questions.

8 MR. JENKS: Your Honor, may I ask one or two

9 questions?

10 THE COURT: Absolutely, Mr. Jenks. I wouldn't

11 leave you out.

12 MR. JENKS: Thank you, your Honor.

13

14 CROSS-EXAMINATION

15 BY MR. JENKS:

16 Q Mr. Skonie, the conversation you had with the Who's

17 Who employee was some five years ago; is that correct?

18 A That is correct.

19 Q Did you make any handwritten notes of that

20 conversation?

21 A No, I did not.

22 Q You work about 50 weeks out of the year; is that

23 correct?
24 A Some years more, some years less.
25 Q All right. Let's say 50 on an average.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5656
Skonie-cross/Jenks


1 A Right.

2 Q You have salesmen that work for you?

3 A Yes, I do.

4 Q How many salesmen do you have in that company, Walter

5 Nye and Company?

6 A Six to ten.

7 Q You have telephone conversations everyday with those

8 people?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q Telephone conversation, with the manufacturers?

11 A Yes.

12 Q How many calls do you take a day, 20, 30 calls a day?

13 A I wouldn't say that many, 10 or 12.

14 Q 10 or 12?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And you do other things in your office; i s that

17 correct?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And as you sit here you are able to recount the

20 conversation that you had in March of 1993, almost

21 verbatim?

22 A I don't believe I said anything verbatim. I gave you

23 general context of the conversation.
24 Q Excuse me. You said in sum and substance what this
25 woman told you; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5657
Skonie-cross/Jenks


1 A Yes.

2 Q You remember the magic word that you were nominated;

3 is that correct?

4 A Absolutely.

5 Q Did the government show you anything to suggest that

6 perhaps you were in fact nominated?

7 A No, they did not.

8 Q Did they show you that you were or were not nominated

9 by Sears or Walgreens or one of the manufacturers you deal

10 with?

11 A No.

12 Q Did they show you any thing or suggest anything that

13 you were nominated by someone in your area in Illinois?

14 A No.

15 Q As you sit here today, can you answer for this jury a

16 hundred percent as to whether you were in fact nominated

17 or not?

18 A I can answer 100 percent that I was told I was

19 nominated.

20 Q You were told. But as you sit here do you know for a

21 fact as to whether or not another member actually

22 nominated you for inclusion in this registry?

23 A I don't know one way or another.
24 Q All right.
25 Let me ask you this: When you received a

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5658
Skonie-cross/Jenks


1 questionnaire from the government, you received a

2 questionnaire sometime around 1995; is that correct?

3 A I don't remember the date that the questionnaire from

4 the government came.

5 Q If I told you June of 1995, would that refresh your

6 recollection?

7 A I would say it is possible.

8 Q Well, let's take a look at it, okay?

9 I am showing you Government's Exhibit 3500-TRS-1,

10 for Identification.

11 Is there a date on there?

12 A June 26th, 1995.

13 THE COURT: You have to pull the microphone

14 closer. We are having trouble hearing you.

15 THE WITNESS: June 26th, 1995.

16 Q Does that refresh your recollection as to when you

17 received this questionnaire?

18 A Yes.

19 THE COURT: Mr. Skonie, you have to wait until

20 Mr. Jenks concludes the question. I know you are anxious

21 to get back to Naperville, Illinois, but you have to wait

22 until the question is over before you answer.

23 Q Now, when you got this questionnaire, you got a cover
24 letter with the questionnaire, do you recall that?
25 A I don't recall.



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5659
Skonie-cross/Jenks


1 Q Do you recall -- withdrawn.

2 When you got this questionnaire, what was your

3 initial reaction to this when you received the

4 questionnaire?

5 A My initial reaction was I filled out the

6 questionnaire and I sent it back.

7 Q Did you believe something was fishy with Who's Who

8 Worldwide or Sterling Who's Who by the content of the

9 questionnaire and the letter you received in the mail from

10 the government?

11 A I believe the government was trying to collect

12 information on this company.

13 Q You believed there was an investigation; is that

14 correct?

15 A Possible.

16 Q When you filled out the questionnaire, is it a fair

17 statement to say that you knew the government was

18 investigating the conduct of these companies; is that

19 correct?

20 A That is correct.

21 Q I mean, you didn't just get the questionnaire and

22 think the government was doing some kind of informational

23 survey, did you?
24 A No.
25 Q And with respect to this invoice that Ms. Scott

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5660
Skonie-cross/Jenks


1 showed you, Government's Exhibit 67-B, I take it you are

2 the president of this company; is that correct?

3 A That is correct.

4 Q And you have a secretary that works for you?

5 A Yes, I do.

6 Q You signed your membership sometime around September

7 of 1993; is that correct?

8 A That's correct.

9 Q And I take it you did receive a copy of this in the

10 mail, right, listing your biographical data?

11 A That's correct.

12 Q You had an opportunity to review it; is that correct?

13 A That is correct.

14 Q Did you see down here that your membership was going

15 to be split billed, and the final payment of $97 is due in

16 December when the Who's Who Registry is released?

17 A I didn't read that.

18 Q Did you bother to look at it? You spent $297 for a

19 membership, correct?

20 The company didn't scam you, it is here in black

21 and white that in order to get a registry you were going

22 to have to pay another $97; is that right?

23 A I didn't read it.
24 Q Is that the company's fault that you didn't read the
25 document sent to you?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5661
Skonie-cross/Jenks


1 MS. SCOTT: Objection.

2 THE COURT: Sustained.

3 MR. JENKS: I have nothing further, your Honor.

4 THE COURT: Anything else?

5 MR. NEVILLE: A couple, your Honor.

6

7 CROSS-EXAMINATION

8 BY MR. NEVILLE:

9 Q Hi. My name is Jim Neville, and I represent Scott

10 Michaelson.

11 When did you leave your home to come here to

12 testify?

13 A Yesterday afternoon.

14 Q Did you fly here?

15 A Yes.

16 Q The government paid for your ticket?

17 A Yes.

18 Q The government paid for your breakfast?

19 A Yes.

20 Q The government paid for your hotel room?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Let me ask you this, sir: You are a busy man in

23 business, right?
24 A Uh-huh.
25 Q And if you weren't here today you would be sitting in

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5662
Skonie-cross/Neville


1 your office, or you would be doing some work, taking phone

2 calls or speaking to sales reps, things like that?

3 A Right.

4 Q Doing your job?

5 A Correct.

6 Q Earning a living, right?

7 A That is correct.

8 Q So, how many hours have you been away from your

9 office or away from your job on account of coming here to

10 testify, two days worth, three days worth?

11 A No. About four hours.

12 Q Okay.

13 When are you going to get back to work?

14 A When I leave and get on an airplane, if it is before

15 5:00 I will go back to the office. If it is after 5:00 I

16 will go home.

17 Q So, you will miss at least one day of work?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q Eight hours, ten hours, how many hours a day is for

20 you?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q And after you got this plaque, and you said you were

23 agitated or disappointed with it, you didn't pick up the
24 phone and call and ask for a refund?
25 A I didn't say I was agitated or disappointed with the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5663
Skonie-cross/Neville


1 plaque. I said I was agitated with the process, and I did

2 not use the plaque.

3 Q But you have taken a whole day off from work at least

4 one full day; is that correct?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q And you have come to New York to testify so lawyers

7 could ask you questions?

8 A That's correct.

9 Q And you are missing opportunities on the job?

10 A That's correct.

11 Q And you didn't pick up the phone and ask for a

12 refund?

13 A I don't see how that is related.

14 Q Well, you are wasting a whole day from your job to

15 come here and testify?

16 A I don't consider doing the obligation of a citizen a

17 waste of time.

18 Q Do you feel now as you testified that you are doing

19 some duty as a citizen?

20 A I think the legal process depends on citizens to

21 testify if they are asked to t estify, absolutely.

22 Q And you are here merely because you are doing a job

23 as a citizen, doing your duty as a citizen, and doing
24 something for the government?
25 A I was asked to testify, and I came to testify.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5664
Skonie-cross/Neville


1 Q So, if you had not been asked to testify you would

2 never have volunteered to testify; is that right?

3 A Of course not. I wouldn't have known that this

4 existed had I not been asked.

5 Q Did you ever make any complaints to any better

6 business bureau or anything like that on this?

7 A On testifying? I wouldn't complain to the Better

8 Business Bureau about testifying.

9 Q No. It is not what I meant, sir. About this

10 registry and this company and this experience you had?

11 A I complained to the representative of the company.

12 Q That was not my question.

13 Did you complain to a Better Business Bureau?

14 A No.

15 Q You didn't call to get your money back?

16 A No.

17 Q You wouldn't be here unless the government asked you

18 to come?

19 A Obviously someone asked me to come. That's why I am

20 here. If no one asked me I wouldn't be here because I

21 wouldn't know it was going on.

22 Q Right. If the government hadn't sent you the

23 questionnaire, you wouldn't have known anything is going
24 on with this case, right?
25 A I guess so, yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5665
Skonie-cross/Neville


1 Q Have you ever heard of Marquis Who's Who?

2 A No.

3 Q Have you ever heard of any Who's Who publications?

4 A Sterling Who's Who and I heard of Who's Who

5 Worldwide.

6 Q You never heard of any other kind of Who's Whos?

7 A Who's Who is a kind of general term, I have learned

8 afterwards that there is more than one Who's Who.

9 Q Would it surprise you to know that there is a Who's

10 Who called Marquis Who's Who, that is owned by a Dutch

11 conglomerate, a Dutch corporation?

12 A No, it wouldn't surprise me.

13 Q Would it surprise you to know that Marquis Who's Who

14 sued this company for trademark infringement?

15 MS. SCOTT: Objection.

16 THE COURT: Sustained.

17 Q Would it surprise you to learn that Marquis Who's Who

18 also uses mailing lists to attract people?

19 MS. SCOTT: Objection.

20 THE COURT: Sustained.

21 MR. NEVILLE: No further questions.

22 MR. NELSON: May I ask questions?

23 THE COURT: Surely.
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5666
Skonie-cross/Nelson


1 CROSS-EXAMIN ATION

2 BY MR. NELSON:

3 Q Good morning, Mr. Skonie.

4 A Good morning.

5 Q My name is Alan Nelson.

6 I believe you testified when Mr. Dunn, the tall

7 gentleman, asked you some questions, that when you

8 received the wall plaque you really didn't look at it and

9 sort of put it on the side; is that right?

10 A I obviously looked at it. But I didn't use it. I

11 put it on the side.

12 Q Not because there was anything wrong with the wall

13 plaque, you just weren't particularly interested in the

14 plaque, because the reason why you joined Who's Who

15 Worldwide was because you wanted the membership, which was

16 the key to your joining; is that correct?

17 A It seems correct, yes.

18 Q And I believe you testified on direct examination

19 when questioned by Ms. Scott, that you are largely in the

20 business of contacts, and you needed to netwo rk; is that

21 correct?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q And the reason why you saw Who's Who Worldwide as
24 being an effective or appropriate organization to join was
25 the possibilities for business contacts that membership in

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5667
Skonie-cross/Nelson


1 the organization would offer; is that right?

2 A That is correct.

3 Q Now, I believe you testified -- and I was writing

4 down some of the notes based on what you testified to --

5 that when you received the invoice for the registry, you

6 decided not to pay the additional sum of money because you

7 were agitated because you assumed you would have known by

8 that point who the other members were; do you recall

9 having given that testimony?

10 A No. I said I didn't read that portion of the

11 invoice, and I became agitated when the person called me

12 on the phone to sell me the directory.

13 Q Okay.

14 You see now that the invoice does indicate that

15 the -- this is the invoice that you would have received

16 within a month after you joined Who's Who Worldwide, that

17 in order to acquire the registry, you would have to pay an

18 additional sum of $97; is that right?

19 A It says that.

20 Q And the reason why you would have joined Who's Who

21 Worldwide was a business decision; it was for purposes of

22 expanding your business and earning more money; is that

23 correct?
24 A And because I had been nominated by someone and
25 hopefully did not wish to offend, possibly offend someone

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5668
Skonie-cross/Nelson


1 who nominated me.

2 Q And likewise that would have been a business decision

3 on your pa rt, that you didn't want to offend a former

4 customer of yours, or a present customer of yours, who you

5 felt might have nominated you; is that correct?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And the reason you might have purchased membership

8 for the networking reasons would have been to necessarily

9 acquire new business; is that right?

10 A That's a true statement, yes.

11 Q And by not paying the additional fee of $97, you

12 never acquired the registry; is that right?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q And you never acquired the CD-ROM; is that right?

15 A That is correct.

16 Q And you never had the opportunity to utilize the

17 CD-ROM as Mr. Trabulus was demonstrating to you, to

18 attempt to acquire the names of people who could

19 potentially be individuals whom you could network within

20 acquire new business; is that right? Just yes or no,

21 sir? Yes or no.

22 A I never -- I never acquired the books.

23 Q Okay.
24 So, as a result of your annoyance over the fact
25 that there was an additional $97 fee due in an invoice you

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5669
Skonie-cross/Nelson


1 received within a month of your joining, you never gave

2 Who's Who Worldwide the opportunity to demonstrate to you

3 its networking abilities that could have made your

4 business a better, stronger and more possible -- more

5 powerful -- more profitable business; is that right, sir?

6 A I can't answer that with a yes or no.

7 Q $97 would have been a fairly cheap price to gain some

8 fairly large customers, would you agree?

9 A That's your assumption, and not mine.

10 MR. NELSON: Thank you. I have no further

11 questions.

12

13 CROSS-EXAMINATION

14 BY MR. SCHOER:

15 Q Mr. Sk onie, good morning.

16 A Good morning.

17 Q Other than the invoice you received, did you receive

18 any other mailings from Who's Who?

19 A Just the one to Mr. Nye.

20 Q That was not from Who's Who Worldwide, was it?

21 A From Sterling Who's Who.

22 Q It wasn't from Who's Who Worldwide, was it?

23 A That's right.
24 Q Did you receive any other mailings from Who's Who
25 Worldwide?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5670
Skonie-cross/Schoer


1 A Not that I can recall.

2 Q Did you receive a membership package in any way that

3 told you the benefits?

4 A I received the plaque and some other items, but I

5 don't remember what the other items were.

6 Q Did you receive any magazines?

7 A Not that I recall.

8 Q I will show you what is marked as AB in evidence, AE

9 in evidence.

10 Do y ou remember receiving a welcoming letter, and

11 a little brochure with respect to benefits?

12 (Handed to the witness.)

13 A I don't remember.

14 Q You might have received those, right?

15 A It's possible.

16 Q I will show you what is marked as

17 Defendant's Exhibit H, Gordon-H.

18 (Handed to the witness.)

19 Q That's a magazine. Do you remember receiving that?

20 A I don't remember receiving this.

21 Q Looking at that magazine, is it fair to say that you

22 were interested in housewares and electronics, those are

23 two separate areas; is that my understanding?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q And would a person like the retired chairman and CEO

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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Skonie-cross/Schoer


1 of Emerson Electric be someone you might be interested in

2 talking to in networking?

3 A Yes.

4 Q In electronics?

5 How about the president and CEO of GE Appliances?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Is that someone you would be interested in?

8 A Yes.

9 Q How about the president of Norsk, N O R S K?

10 A I don't know them.

11 Q They make housewares, from Norway, I believe. It is

12 a Norwegian company making housewares.

13 A Yes.

14 Q Would you be interested in someone like that?

15 A Absolutely.

16 Q Did you know that all those people were profiled in

17 this magazine as being members of Who's Who Worldwide?

18 A They are profiled in there?

19 Q Now, you filled out a questionnaire; is that correct?

20 A That is correct.

21 Q And in the questionnaire you were asked this

22 question, question number 25:

23 What were the primary reasons for your decision
24 to purchase a directory or become a member?
25 Your answer to that was, seemed to present a

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5672
Skonie-cross/Schoer


1 business opportunity.

2 Do you remember being asked that question and

3 giving that answer?

4 A Yes.

5 Q You didn't say anything in there as a nomination

6 being a reason or a primary reason even for being --

7 withdrawn.

8 You didn't say anything in your answer that

9 nomination was one of the primary reasons for purchasing

10 this membership, did you?

11 A It was one of the primary reasons. But I didn't say

12 it in that particular specific case.

13 Q All right.

14 You were given the opportunity in June of 1995,

15 to write out the primary reasons; is that fair to say, in

16 this questionnaire?

17 A I filled out a questionnaire in June of 1995, yes.

18 Q And you were given an opportunity to set forth the

19 primary reasons, plural, for your decision to purchase a

20 membership; isn't that right?

21 A I filled out that questionnaire, yes, that's correct.

22 Q And you were given that -- you were given in that

23 questionnaire the opportunity to fill out and set forth
24 the primary reasons, plural, for your purchasing the
25 membership; is that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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Skonie-cross/Schoer


1 A I was given that opportunity.

2 Q And you took that opportunity by putting an answer to

3 that question; isn't that so?

4 A I put that answer down that is on that sheet, yes.

5 Q And you didn't say anything in that answer about

6 nominations, right?

7 A Not in that sheet, I did not.

8 Q You talked about the salespeople you have employed by

9 you; is that right?

10 A That is correct.

11 Q You sa id none of them have quotas?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q Are those people on straight -- are your salespeople

14 on straight commissions?

15 A Some are and some are not.

16 Q If the salespeople that are on -- that are not on

17 straight commissions, if they didn't make any sales, would

18 you continue to employ them?

19 A It depends on what the circumstances were.

20 Q If the salespeople were not on commission that you

21 were paying a salary to, made no sales at all, would you

22 continue to employ them?

23 A It depends on the conditions I had given them. It is
24 possible --
25 Q You would give them a production quota, they would

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5674
Skonie-cross/Schoer


1 have to go out and make sales?

2 A I already told you I didn't give quotas.

3 Q You are telling us you would contin ue to employ

4 someone, pay a salary to them if they were totally

5 unproductive?

6 A I didn't say that.

7 Q If they made no sales?

8 A It is possible.

9 MR. SCHOER: I have nothing further.

10 THE COURT: Anything else?

11 Any redirect?

12 MS. SCOTT: Yes, there is, your Honor. May I

13 have a moment?

14 THE COURT: Yes.

15 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

16 proceedings.)

17

18 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

19 BY MS. SCOTT:

20 Q Mr. Skonie, on cross-examination you were shown the

21 CD-ROM; is that correct?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q You were asked a number of questions about a magazine
24 that Who's Who Worldwide published.
25 A Right.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5675
Skonie-redirect/Scott


1 Q Now, through these questions, particularly th e

2 questions about the CD-ROM, you were given some names of

3 individuals in your industry; is that right?

4 A That is correct.

5 Q And you were asked if you would want to network with

6 those people; is that correct?

7 A That is correct.

8 Q You answered in some cases you might be interested in

9 networking with those people; is that correct?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And at one point, you said that that is not the

12 point; do you remember saying that?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Can you tell us what you meant by that?

15 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor. That was a

16 motion to --

17 THE COURT: Objection without statement, please.

18 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.

19 THE COURT: Overruled.

20 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, may we approach?

21 THE COURT: No. Overruled.

22 A The point is these names, I can get these names for

23 free from any number o f sources. I can get them from show
24 listings from trade shows. I can get them from trade
25 directories, I can get them from the phone book. I can

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5676
Skonie-redirect/Scott


1 look up General Electric in the phone book and call them

2 up and say any want to talk to the chairman of the board

3 of General Electric.

4 My possibility of talking to them if I got it out

5 of the phone book or out of these books is nil. I mean, I

6 get the names of all these people in any number of ways

7 for free without joining a group or an association.

8 I can go on the Internet and get those names for

9 free. I can go on the Internet and get a listing of

10 companies and their CEOs and marketing people, in any

11 number of ways for a fraction of what this cost.

12 Q So, would you be willing to pay $290 for a lis t of

13 the names?

14 A Absolutely not.

15 Q Now, in addition when you were asked about a CD-ROM,

16 and about the directory, you were also asked about whether

17 in fact you had given the company a chance when you

18 declined to purchase these items; do you recall that

19 question?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q Were you willing to pay an additional $100 for those

22 items?

23 A Not for a list of names, no.
24 Q You were also asked questions about what the
25 government spoke to you about in the discussions before

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5677
Skonie-redirect/Scott


1 today?

2 A That's correct.

3 Q Do you remember being asked if the government had

4 mentioned mailing lists to you?

5 A We talked about the fact --

6 THE COURT: No. The question is were you asked?

7 Were you asked t hat question in cross-examination.

8 THE WITNESS: Repeat the question, please.

9 Q In cross-examination today you were asked questions

10 by defense counsel about whether the government had spoken

11 to you about mailing lists. Do you remember those

12 questions today?

13 A I remember that question.

14 Q Now, when your company received a letter for

15 Mr. Nye -- withdrawn.

16 When your company received a letter for Mr. Nye,

17 you were surprised by that; is that correct?

18 MR. JENKS: Objection.

19 Q When your company received a letter for Mr. Nye,

20 Mr. Nye was at that time dead; is that correct?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q How long had he been dead?

23 A Mr. Nye -- I am trying to jog my memory. I have a 16
24 year old son. And Mr. Nye died the year he was born. So
25 Mr. Nye died approximately 1981.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFF ICIAL COURT REPORTER

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Skonie-redirect/Scott


1 Q Now, when you received, and saw that letter to

2 Mr. Nye, where did you suspect that the company obtained

3 that name?

4 MR. JENKS: Objection.

5 THE COURT: Sustained. Desist from Mr. Nye.

6 Q Now, do you remember being asked questions from

7 defense counsel about how many people you talked to each

8 day in connection with your business?

9 A That's correct, yes.

10 Q Do you remember you said you talk to a large number

11 of people?

12 A Some days yes. Some days more. I make a lot of

13 phone calls, a reasonable number of phone calls.

14 Q Do you remember being asked whether, nevertheless,

15 you could remember a conversation that took place five

16 years ago from Who's Who Worldwide?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q How is it that you are able to remember that

19 conversation?

20 A Because I was irritated to the point that I didn't

21 forget. Some things you remember. Some things kind of

22 float off into never-never.

23 If something happens from a person that impacts
24 you, you remember. If you run your car into a wall you
25 remember. If you become very agitated over a business

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5679
Skonie-redirect/Scott


1 situation you tend to remember those things. And I

2 remember that conversation. It just didn't flow into the

3 rest of the day. It stood out a lot.

4 Q Now, you were asked if you were agitated.

5 Withdrawn.

6 You were asked questions about when your

7 irritation with the company began, do you recall those

8 questions?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Can you tell us what caused your initial irritation

11 with the company?

12 A When I first got it I asked about how I had been

13 selected, about how things were done. As I got kind of

14 into the process and got asked for the book, it struck me

15 as being less of an opportunity to -- it didn't flow the

16 way a normal association with which you join flows. You

17 join something. Generally you get a membership, or you

18 find out other people who are in it, or what the

19 organizationally purposes are, whatever. But it went from

20 one paying of money, and the next issue was again money.

21 MR. LEE: Objection, your Honor.

22 A And that irritated me.

23 THE COURT: You are objecting on what ground?
24 MR. LEE: After "normally" I don't think it is
25 responsive.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5680
Skonie-redirect/Scott


1 THE COURT: Yes. I will strike the entire answer

2 and tell the jury to please disregard it.

3 Q Now, you remember Mr. Jenks showed you the

4 questionnaire you filled out in 1995?

5 A That's right.

6 Q Do you remember Mr. Jenks asking you whether this

7 questionnaire gave you the impression that there was

8 something fishy about the company?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q When did you first get the impression that there was

11 something fishy about the company?

12 A When I refused to pay for the directory, and asked

13 again who had nominated me.

14 Q And was that before you received the government's

15 questionnaire?

16 A Yes, it is.

17 Q Do you remember Mr. Jenks showed you the invoice?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Government's Exhibit 67-B?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Do you remember he showed you the language in the

22 blue box that mentioned the split billing?

23 A Yes.
24 Q In your telephone conversation with the salespersons

2 5 who initially sold you the membership, did that person

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5681
Skonie-redirect/Scott


1 ever mention to you that you would be expected to pay more

2 than $290 in connection with this membership?

3 A No.

4 Q And the invoice that you had seen today with the blue

5 box, did you have that invoice at the time that you made

6 the purchase, that you made the decision to make the

7 purchase?

8 A No.

9 Q That invoice came after you made the purchase; is

10 that correct?

11 A That's correct.

12 Q Now, you were also asked questions about some answers

13 you gave on your questionnaire; do you recall those

14 questions?

15 A Right.

16 Q In particular you were asked about your answer to

17 question 25, which asked for your primary reason for

18 purchasing the membership; do yo u remember that?

19 A Right.

20 MR. SCHOER: Objection. Question 25 -- I am

21 sorry, Judge.

22 THE COURT: Let me hear the question, please,

23 Mr. Reporter.
24 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the
25 requested material.)

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5682
Skonie-redirect/Scott


1 THE COURT: You are objecting to that?

2 MR. SCHOER: Objection to the question, Judge.

3 THE COURT: Why?

4 MR. SCHOER: Because question 25 asks for the

5 primary reasons, in plural, and not the primary reason as

6 formulated by Ms. Scott.

7 THE COURT: Do you amend your question?

8 MS. SCOTT: I amend my questions, yes.

9 THE COURT: Does that satisfy your objection?

10 MR. SCHOER: Yes, sir.

11 THE COURT: Okay.

12 This is like diplomatic, before they decided not

13 to bomb Iraq, diplomatic negotiat ions going on, you see.

14 Go ahead.

15 Q Do you remember being asked whether this question

16 gave you an opportunity to present the primary reasons why

17 you purchased your membership?

18 A I am becoming confused here? I really am.

19 Q I will rephrase it.

20 Do you remember defense counsel asking you

21 whether this question gave you an opportunity to set forth

22 the primary reasons why you purchased the membership?

23 A I guess it gave me the opportunity. Yes, he asked
24 that, yes.
25 Q Do you remember him also asking you whether you had

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5683
Skonie-redirect/Scott


1 mentioned nomination in your answer to that question?

2 A He asked me that.

3 Q I will show you questionnaire and ask you to look in

4 particular at questions number 15 and 26.

5 (Handed to the witnes s.)

6 A Okay.

7 Q Did those questions give you the opportunity to set

8 forth the reasons, primary reasons why you purchased the

9 membership?

10 A Yes, it did.

11 MR. SCHOER: Objection.

12 THE COURT: Overruled.

13 Q Your answer is?

14 A I can read it.

15 Q The answer.

16 A Yes, it did. It says --

17 THE COURT: The question is: Did it provide you

18 with another opportunity to set forth some reasons?

19 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Yes, it did.

20 Q And having looked at that questionnaire does it

21 refresh your recollection about other reasons you gave for

22 purchasing the membership when you filled out the

23 questionnaire?
24 A Yes, it does.
25 Q Can you tell us in substance what those answers were,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5684
Skonie-redirect/Scott


1 without reading?

2 MR. SCHOER: Objection.

3 THE COURT: Overruled.

4 A It says that I was nominated, and that my answer was

5 that I responded that that was one of the reasons why I

6 was nominated. And that's one of the reasons why I

7 joined.

8 MS. SCOTT: May I have a moment, your Honor?

9 THE COURT: Yes.

10 (Ms. Scott confers with Mr. White.)

11 Q Mr. Skonie, do you remember testifying on

12 cross-examination that you were not certain as to whether

13 or not you were in fact nominated? Do you remember saying

14 that?

15 A No, I --

16 THE COURT: Were you asked a question, as you sit

17 here now, do you know whether you were nominated? Were

18 you asked that question?

19 THE WITNESS: I don't know whether I was

20 nominated or not.

21 THE COURT: You don't know?

22 THE WITNESS: No.

23 THE COURT: You were asked that question and
24 that's how you answered it.
25 THE WITNESS: I am becoming a little confused

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5685
Skonie-redirect/Scott


1 with the questions.

2 THE COURT: Understandably so. Sometimes I am,

3 too. Don't worry about it.

4 Q Mr. Skonie, would you take a look, please, at

5 Government's Exhibit 210, which is in evidence.

6 A Okay.

7 (Handed to the witness.)

8 A Right.

9 Q Now, is that a solicitation letter from Who's Who

10 Worldwide?

11 A Yes, it is.

12 Q Is it similar in substance to the solicitation letter

13 you received in 1993?

14 A I honestly can't say to the specifics.

15 MR. JENKS: Objection, your Honor.

16 THE COURT: Yes, sustained.

17 Q Okay.

18 Mr. Skonie, if you take a look at the top of that

19 letter, do you see some handwriting at the top?

20 MR. JENKS: Objection.

21 THE COURT: Sustained.

22 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, it is in evidence.

23 THE COURT: Let me see the letter.
24 (Handed to the Court.)
25 THE COURT: Sustained.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5686
Skonie-redirect/Scott


1 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, can we approach on that

2 issue?

3 THE COURT: No.

4 Next question.

5 Q Mr. Skonie, if you can look at the card in front of

6 you, Government Exhibit 67-D?

7 A This one?

8 Q Yes.

9 Can you tell us the code appearing on the bottom

10 left-hand corner?

11 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.

12 THE COURT: Overruled. I am interested, let's

13 hear.

14 MR. TRABULUS: You heard it already.

15 THE WITNESS: It says GA group FM.

16 THE COURT: No. I am interested how it relates

17 to the question as to whether he is nominated or not.

18 That one I want to hear.

19 You don't know whether you were ever nominated,

20 right? As you sit here today, you don't know that, do

21 you?

22 THE WITNESS: I was told that I was nominated.

23 But I don't know the fact that I was.
24 THE COURT: You don't know one way or the other.
25 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, this relates to that

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5687
Skonie-redirect/Scott


1 issue. That's why we are asking the questions. The codes

2 that appear --

3 MR. LEE: Objection.

4 MR. JENKS: Objection, your Honor.

5 THE COURT: Sustained.

6 Any other questions?

7 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, may I publish the letter

8 that your Honor has before you, Government's Exhibit --

9 THE COURT: It is in evidence?

10 MS. SCOTT: Yes.

11 THE COURT: You can publis h anything in

12 evidence.

13 MS. SCOTT: I would ask permission to publish it,

14 Government's Exhibit 67-D, and Government's Exhibit 210.

15 THE COURT: Yes.

16 You thought I would say no to everything?

17 MR. WHITE: Thank you, no further questions.

18 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published

19 to the jury.)

20

21 RECROSS-EXAMINATION

22 BY MR. TRABULUS:

23 Q Mr. Skonie, I think you were shown that letter that
24 is being circulated around now, and you can't say whether
25 it is the letter you got; is that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5688
Skonie-recross/Trabulus


1 A I can't say that.

2 Q Now, Mr. Skonie, you were asked about some questions

3 on your questionnaire. Do you have the questionnaire with

4 you?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And you were asked by Ms. Scott with re spect to

7 questions 15 and 26; is that right?

8 A Yes.

9 Q You indicated in your answer you said something about

10 being nominated, right?

11 Looking at the answers there, do you see the word

12 "nominated" at all?

13 A Do I see the word, no.

14 Q I think you said that what you were told about how

15 the company obtained your name affected you and made you

16 want to partake, something like that; is that right?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And you also said an important statement or

19 representation --

20 THE COURT: You have to go slower, Mr. Trabulus.

21 I can't keep up with you. I guess it's me.

22 MR. TRABULUS: No, it is me.

23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 Q You also said that the most important statements or
25 representations made by the company where that was a --

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5689
S konie-recross/Trabulus


1 were that it was a very selective membership, right? Look

2 at number 25 -- 26.

3 A The most important -- that's an answer I put down,

4 very selective membership.

5 Q Now, being very selective has nothing to do with

6 whether or not you were nominated by a particular

7 individual or other member; is that correct? It can still

8 be selective, right?

9 A That is correct.

10 Q Now, you also indicated in this questionnaire that

11 you had received all the items that you expected and

12 within the time frame promised. Take a look at question

13 28. Is that right?

14 A That's right.

15 Q And so, when you purchased the membership, you

16 weren't expecting to receive the directory; is that

17 correct?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q And it was only afterward that you made the decision

20 not to purchase the director y; is that correct?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q Now, you told Ms. Scott you could get the names in

23 the directory anywhere?
24 A I didn't say any place. I said I could get them out
25 of trade directories, off the Internet, and in some cases

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5690
Skonie-recross/Trabulus


1 out of phone book.

2 Q You could have contacted those people from those

3 sources; is that correct?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And that would be for free?

6 A Yes.

7 Q If you got it out of those sources and you contacted

8 them, you would not be truthfully be able to say, I am a

9 member of Who's Who Worldwide like you; is that right?

10 A That is correct.

11 Q And when you joined Who's Who Worldwide you were told

12 there was a directory; is that right?

13 A When I joined?

14 Q In the initial tele phone call, you were told that

15 there was an organization and that through it you would be

16 able to network; is that right?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q And were you told that there was a directory, or some

19 kind of listing of the names that were available?

20 A I don't recall being told that.

21 Q So, you understood, did you not, that the networking

22 would come to you through a bunch of names, and you would

23 be able to get it at some point; is that correct?
24 A Obviously, yes.
25 Q And did you have any reason to believe that those

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5691
Skonie-recross/Trabulus


1 names were names that you would not be able to find in a

2 trade directory or in a phone book, or over the Internet,

3 or any of the sources that you now told us would be a

4 source for the names?

5 A Could you r epeat that?

6 Q Sure.

7 When you understood that you would be getting a

8 bunch of names --

9 A Slower, please.

10 Q Sure.

11 When you were told or came to understand that you

12 would be able to get some names of other members, did you

13 think that those were people whose names could not be

14 found in a trade directory?

15 A I can't answer that yes or no.

16 Q Well, when you made the decision not to purchase the

17 directory --

18 A Right.

19 Q -- you had not learned anything more about what was

20 in the directory or the kinds of listing in the directory,

21 or what kind of people were there, or their names, than

22 you had when you decided to purchase a membership; is that

23 correct?
24 A When I purchased a directory, I had not -- I had
25 decided not to purchase it. I had not seen it.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, C P, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5692
Skonie-recross/Trabulus


1 Q Let me go back.

2 Between the time when you became a member --

3 A Right.

4 Q -- and the time you decided not to purchase the

5 directory --

6 A Right.

7 Q -- you hadn't learned anything more than you had

8 originally been told about the names of the members in the

9 membership; is that correct?

10 A I think that's correct.

11 Q You didn't learn for the first time between those two

12 times, that those names were names you could get from a

13 trade directory, did you?

14 A No.

15 Q You didn't learn for the first time that those names

16 were names that might have been found in some instances in

17 a telephone book, did you?

18 A No.

19 Q So, really, between the time -- one other thing.

20 As you sit there today you seem to have some

21 doubt as to whether or not you were nominated; is that

22 correct?

23 A I don't understand the question.
24 Q I think you have been asked that you don't know --
25 A I was told I was nominated. That's all I can say.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5693
Skonie-recross/Trabulus


1 Q And between the time that you received -- that you

2 were told that in that initial telephone conversation, and

3 the time you decided not to purchase the directory, had

4 you learned anything new besides what you had originally

5 been told that led you to question that?

6 A No.

7 Q So, your decision not to purchase the directory had

8 nothing to do with whether you had been nominated or not;

9 is that correct?

10 A That's not correct.

11 Q Well, originally you were told that you had been

12 nominated, right?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And then there came a point in time -- withdrawn.

15 When you were told that, in that telephone

16 conversation, you didn't question it, did you?

17 A Yes, I did. I asked who nominated me.

18 Q What I meant was: Did you question -- did you doubt

19 in your mind that you had been nominated?

20 A Did I doubt? No.

21 Q So your decision, you then -- you then purchased the

22 membership; is that correct?

23 A That is correct.
24 Q And then there came a time that you were told if you
25 wanted to purchase the directory, you would have to pay

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5694
Skonie-recross/Trabulus


1 $97; is that right?

2 A That's right.

3 Q Now, between that time when you were told that you

4 were nominated and you decided not to pay the $97, were

5 you given any further reason to question whether or not

6 you had been nominated?

7 A I didn't talk to anybody in that space of time or

8 have any contact in that space of time.

9 Q So, your decision not to purchase a directory was

10 made on exactly the same information on which you had

11 decided to become a member; is that correct?

12 A I am again becoming confused.

13 Q Let me try it again.

14 When you decided not to purchase the directory,

15 you had not learned anything new about Who's Who

16 Worldwide?

17 A I had a conversation with the representative of Who's

18 Who who called me back. And at that time I said -- we got

19 into the nomination thing again. They said it was

20 confidential.

21 And I said, I don't want to purchase the

22 directory because this is not turning out the way I wanted

23 it to. And then I made the decision not to purchase the
24 directory.
25 Q You were told in the first conversation it was

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5695
Skonie-recross/Trabulus


1 confidential?

2 A Yes.

3 Q You were not told it is confidential now and

4 somewhere down the line we will tell you; is that right?

5 A No. I was told it was confidential. But I was never

6 told somewhere down the line I will be told.

7 Q When you were told in the second conversation it was

8 confidential, you were being told exactly the same thing

9 as you were being told originally; is that right?

10 A That's right.

11 Q So, nothing had changed, except now you didn't want

12 to purchase the directory; is that correct?

13 A I told the representative that I did not want to

14 purchase the directory.

15 Q Now, when you originally became a member, and you

16 were thinking about networking, and it occurred to you as

17 a value in networking, to be able to tell someone else

18 whom you wanted to do business with, look, I have

19 something in common with you, I am a member of Who's Who

20 Worldwide just like you; is that correct?

21 A It was not my thought process.

22 Q You might not have said it exactly that way, but it

23 certainly would have been someone who is a member of the
24 same organization, and that may provide the basis for an
25 introduction or an initial contact; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5696
Skonie-recross/Trabulus


1 A Repeat that, please.

2 Q Well, did it occur to you when you joined --

3 A Yes.

4 Q -- that it might be a source of contacts, that you

5 could contact somebody saying that we are in similar lines

6 of business, we might do business together, and, by the

7 way, like you, I am a member of Who's Who Worldwide?

8 A I can't say that that was my thought process, no.

9 Q Well, did you think that it would help you in gaining

10 an entree with someone else that you both would be members

11 of Who's Who Worldwide?

12 A I can't answer that with a yes or no.

13 Q Well, I will let you explain that one.

14 A I thought I would be put into contact with other

15 people, as you normally are in some sort of an

16 association, and that, you know, I would build those

17 contracts.

18 For example, I belong to the Housewares Club of

19 Chicago, the largest housewares club in Chicago. But I

20 don't go up to people saying you are in the housewares

21 club, too. I am put in contact with those people. They

22 are around me. There is an assumption if you are there

23 and you are in contact with people in those context, it is
24 an opportunity.
25 Q Mr. Skonie, the Housewares Club in Chicago is

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5697
Skonie-recross/Trabulus


1 specifically for people in the same general business; is

2 that correct?

3 A No. Anybody can join.

4 Q Well, would a doctor join it?

5 A It's possible. I don't know if we have any doctor

6 members, but he wouldn't be precluded from joining it.

7 Q Isn't the purpose for the people in the housewares

8 business to have a common organization?

9 A It is a charitable purpose actually.

10 Q Okay, but at the same time the people generally in it

11 are in the housewares business, that's how they got their

12 name; is that correct?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And those are the people who would each tend to want

15 to network with each other; is that right?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q When you joined Who's Who Worldwide you didn't think

18 it was just consisting of people who were in the same

19 industry or business that you were in, did you?

20 A No.

21 Q You understood it was all kind of businesses; is that

22 right?

23 A That's right.
24 Q So, in terms of -- you didn't -- in terms of
25 networking, did you not understand that it would be up to

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5698
Skonie-recross/Trabulus


1 you to seek out those members who had something in common

2 with you and attempt to network with them, just as they

3 might do it with you?

4 A I can't answer that with a yes or no.

5 Q Well, did it occur to you that you might have to do

6 something yourself in terms of contacting members in terms

7 of networking?

8 A What do you mean by that when you say "contacting?"

9 Q Were you expecting after joining Who's Who W orldwide

10 to just sit back and wait for other members to call you

11 and get business that way?

12 A No. I expected that there would be functions, or the

13 opportunity to meet people.

14 Q And you never found out whether or not that was so

15 because you decided not to proceed once you got the bill

16 for the directory; is that correct?

17 A I really wasn't interested in contacting people out

18 of a directory, no.

19 Q Your business is located in Arlington Heights?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And do you know if there are not business people who

22 are members of Who's Who Worldwide who are in Arlington

23 Heights?
24 A No.
25 Q Do you know a Mr. Ganofski, G A N O F S K I?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5699
Skonie-recross/Trabulus


1 THE COURT: Mr. Trabulus, it is improper

2 recross-examination. I wil l not allow it. You could have

3 brought that in before. You did not. It was not raised

4 on redirect, and I am precluding it.

5 MR. TRABULUS: I thought it had to do with the

6 question asked on cross-examination -- on redirect --

7 THE COURT: What question?

8 MR. TRABULUS: The question asked by Ms. Scott as

9 to nomination.

10 THE COURT: You are trying to show that he was

11 perhaps nominated by one of those people?

12 MR. TRABULUS: One of them.

13 THE COURT: Go ahead. I thought you were trying

14 to as you certainly could, to show that there were people

15 in the industry that he could network with. That would be

16 improper recross-examination. And we don't want to

17 prolong this, do we?

18 MR. TRABULUS: I will just go through the names

19 quickly.

20 THE WITNESS: Okay.

21 Q Joel, A R R E A Z O L A, Arreazola.

22 A Don't know hi m.

23 Q Kenneth A. Becker. Debra Domkowski,
24 D O M K O W S K I.
25 A No.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5700
Skonie-recross/Trabulus


1 Q Ronald Duda, D U D A?

2 A No.

3 Q George R. Fisher, Jr.

4 A No.

5 Q F I S H E R.

6 Earl Freeman, F R E E M A N.

7 A No.

8 Q John Hughes?

9 A No.

10 Q Anita L. Johnson?

11 A No.

12 Q Peter J. La Salle, L A S A L L E?

13 A No.

14 Q Jacqueline L. Lambe, with an E at the end, spelled

15 like the animal with an E?

16 A No.

17 Q M C C E L L A N, so it is John B. McCellan, I

18 misread it.

19 John M. Scanlon, S C A N L O N?

20 A No.

21 Q And a Mr. Rifat, R I F A T?

22 A No.

23 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions.
24 THE COURT: Anything else?
25 MR. WHITE: Yes, your Honor.



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5701
Skonie-recross/Dunn


1 MR. DUNN: I do, your Honor, one or two.

2

3 RECROSS-EXAMINATION

4 BY MR. DUNN:

5 Q Mr. Skonie, you said, I believe, on redirect

6 examination, that you believe that if you took a phone

7 book or just some book of names, and tried to write

8 somebody who was a CEO, and turn it into some business

9 opportunity, it is your position that you wouldn't even

10 have gotten a response to that?

11 A Depending on the person. I guess the example was the

12 chairman of the board of General Electric.

13 Q If you wanted to contact somebody and put the seal of

14 Who's Who on your letterhead, and wrote it to another

15 member stating you would like to meet with this person

16 about a possible business opportunity, is it your position

17 you wouldn't have gotte n a response? Yes or no?

18 A I can't answer that in a yes or no.

19 Q Because you never tried; is that right?

20 A That's correct.

21 Q Now, sir, your main interest was developing your

22 business; is that correct?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q Networking, is that right?
25 A That's correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5702
Skonie-recross/Dunn


1 Q And if you had a good opportunity to network with

2 other people in similar lines of business, you would try

3 to take advantage of it; is that correct?

4 A I would try to take advantage of opportunities,

5 that's correct.

6 Q To network, correct?

7 A Right.

8 Q And whether you got those names, those people to

9 network with, from a mailing list or anywhere else, if you

10 could get a benefit from it, you would want to do it,

11 correct?

12 A That is correct.

13 MR. DUNN: No further questions, your Honor.

14 THE COURT: Anything else?

15 MS. SCOTT: Yes, your Honor.

16

17 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION

18 BY MS. SCOTT:

19 Q Mr. Skonie, you were asked a moment ago as to whether

20 you would sit back and wait to be contacted with -- from

21 other members of Who's Who Worldwide. Do you remember

22 that questions?

23 A Uh-huh.
24 THE COURT: Yes?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5703
Skonie-recross/Scott


1 Q Do you remember Mr. Trabulus suggesting you had not

2 given the company a chance when you decided not to

3 purchase the directory?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Now, during the time --

6 A Could you come by the microphone, because I can't

7 hear you.

8 Q Oh, sure.

9 During the time tha t you were a member, were you

10 ever notified of any meetings or conferences or functions

11 involving members of Who's Who Worldwide?

12 A No.

13 Q Were you ever sent any copies of the magazine while

14 you were a member?

15 A Not to my recollection.

16 Q Now, you were asked some more questions about that

17 questionnaire you filled out in 1995?

18 A Right.

19 Q Do you remember being asked whether you had actually

20 written the word "nomination" or "nominate" in your

21 answers to questions 15, 25 and 26?

22 A Right.

23 Q And you testified that you did not use that word in
24 answer to any of those questions?
25 A Right.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5704
Skonie-recross/Scott


1 Q Is that correct?

2 A Right.

3 Q Now, did you use that word in answer to any other

4 questio ns in the answers to the questionnaire?

5 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.

6 THE COURT: Overruled. Do you have any such

7 answers?

8 MS. SCOTT: Yes.

9 Q Referring you to question three.

10 THE COURT: Tell us about it. We will take your

11 word for it.

12 Q Question 3.

13 A Okay.

14 Q Did you use the word "nominate" in your answer to

15 that question?

16 A Yes.

17 Q What about your answers to question 14B, as in

18 Baker?

19 A Yes, I did.

20 Q Now, Mr. Skonie, did you pay $290 to network with

21 people whose names were taken from a mailing list?

22 A No.

23 Q And at the time that you made this purchase, if
24 people's names, including your own, had been taken from
25 mailing lists, is that something you would have wanted to

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5705
Skonie- recross/Scott


1 know before making a purchase?

2 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.

3 THE COURT: Sustained.

4 MR. WHITE: No further questions.

5 THE COURT: Anything else?

6 MR. TRABULUS: Very briefly.

7 THE COURT: I am trying to delay our recess so we

8 can conclude this witness so he can get back to work

9 today. That's my purpose.

10

11 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION

12 BY MR. TRABULUS:

13 Q Mr. Skonie, Ms. Scott asked you a couple of questions

14 in which you did use the word "nominate"; is that correct?

15 A Yes.

16 Q One was question three?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And that was, what were you told about the company,

19 its directories and your potential inclusion in them? And

20 your answer was, I had been nominated for inclusion by

21 someone; is that correct?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q And the other one was question 1 4; is that correct?
24 Is it 14-B -- I am sorry, 14-B.
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5706
Skonie-recross/Trabulus


1 Q And the question there is: Were you told whether

2 your name had been obtained from a mailing list? Did you

3 ask the salesman -- salesperson where they had obtained

4 your name? And you answered, I asked -- they said I was

5 nominated, but they could not reveal by whom.

6 A That's correct.

7 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, Mr. Skonie.

8 THE COURT: Anyone else?

9 MR. NELSON: Very briefly.

10

11 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION

12 BY MR. NELSON:

13 Q Mr. Skonie, you had sent in your nominations --

14 A Would you start over, I didn't hear you.

15 Q I am sorry.

16 You sent in your ballot for inclusion in Who's

17 Who Worldwide in mid-September, 1993; is that correct?

18 A I guess so, yeah.

19 Q And you received the invoice, which is dated

20 September 21st, 1993, and that's Exhibit 67-B; is that

21 right?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Okay.
24 Now, you don't have with you today -- and we have
25 not been provided with -- the second invoice that was sent

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5707
Skonie-recross/Nelson


1 to you for purposes of the acquisition of the registry; is

2 that right?

3 A I don't believe I ever got an invoice for the

4 registry.

5 Q But you were contacted with respect to that; is that

6 correct?

7 A On the telephone, yes.

8 Q And that was in December of 1993; is that right?

9 A It was some short months after this.

10 Q So, in essence, when you testified that you hadn't

11 received anything from Who's Who Worldwide between the

12 time you agreed to join and the time that you notified

13 Who's Who that you wished to cancel your membership, that

14 would have been around a 90 day period of time; is that

15 correct?

16 A I didn't notify them.

17 Q You spoke with someone on the telephone; is that

18 correct?

19 A They called me, and we had a conversation, and I told

20 them I was not interested in the directory.

21 Q And you also told them, if I am correct, that you

22 weren't interested in your membership; is that correct?

23 A Repeat that.
24 Q You weren't interested in your membership either; is
25 that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5708
Skonie-recross/Nelson


1 A I told them I wasn't interested in pursuing their

2 offerings any longer.

3 Q You had given them a 90 day period of time; is that

4 correct?

5 A That's corr ect.

6 THE COURT: Anything else?

7 MS. SCOTT: Nothing further.

8 THE COURT: All right.

9 You are excused.

10 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

11 (Whereupon, at this time the witness left the

12 witness stand.)

13 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we are going to

14 take a ten-minute recess. Please do not discuss the case,

15 and keep an open mind.

16 Please recess yourselves.

17 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the

18 courtroom.)

19

20 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)

21

22

23
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5709

1 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the

2 courtroom.)

3 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the

4 jury.

5 You may proceed.

6 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, we will play a short

7 series of ta pe excerpts now.

8 THE COURT: Hold it a minute, Mr. White.

9 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

10 proceedings.)

11 THE COURT: You may proceed.

12 MR. WHITE: The first tape is 1356. The

13 transcript is the excerpt marked 1356-C, as in Charley.

14 The date is December 8th, 1994 and it is a call to

15 Sterling Who's Who.

16 (Tape is played.)

17 THE COURT: What number was that?

18 MR. WHITE: 1356-C, like in Charley.

19 THE COURT: Oh, C, I am sorry.

20 MR. NEVILLE: Your Honor, could Mr. White explain

21 who the salesperson was who made those utterances.

22 MR. WHITE: It is reflected on the transcript.

23 MR. NEVILLE: Well, could you say it?
24 MR. WHITE: It is Mr. Hammond -- I am sorry, it
25 is Mark Johnson.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5710

1 THE COURT: Mark Johnson is the salesperson?

2 MR. WHITE: Yes, Mark Johnson.

3 The next one is 1307. The excerpt is 1307-B,

4 like in baker. The date is October 24th, 1994. It is a

5 call to Sterling Who's Who. And the salesperson is Scott

6 Matthews.

7 (Tape is played.)

8 MR. WHITE: The next one is 1309. The transcript

9 is 1309-D, for Dog. The date is October 27th, 1994. The

10 call is to Sterling Who's Who. And the employees on the

11 recording are Andrea Franklin and Mike Powers.

12 THE COURT: Mike Powers?

13 MR. WHITE: Yes.

14 (Tape is played.)

15 MR. WHITE: The next one is Exhibit 1331. The

16 date is December 14th, 1994. The call is to Sterling.

17 And the salesperson is Scott Matthews. The transcript is

18 1331-D, D like in Dog.

19 (Tape is played.)

20 MR. NEVILLE: That was Scott Matthews; is that

21 correct?

22 MR. WHITE: Correct.

23 MR. SCHOER: At Sterling?
24 MR. NEVILLE: At Sterling?
25 MR. WHITE: Yes. As I said before, that's

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5711

1 correct, Mr. Neville.

2 MR. NEVILLE: Thank you.

3 MR. WHITE: The next exhibit is 1305. The

4 transcript is 1305-A, like in Apple. The date is

5 September 6th, 1994. The call is to Who's Who Worldwide.

6 The employee on the tape is Roseanne Patton, P A T T O N.

7 (Tape is played.)

8 MR. WHITE: The next is 1334. The transcript is

9 1334-C, for Charley. The date is December 19th, 1994.

10 The call is to Who's Who Worldwide. And the employee is

11 Jill Barnes.

12 (Tape is played.)

13 MR. WHITE: Next is 1335. The transcript is

14 1335-B, for Baker. The date is December 19th, 1994. And

15 the call is to Sterling Who's Who. The employee is Mike

16 Phillips.

17 (Tape is played.)

18 MR. WHITE: Next is 1336. The transcript is

19 1336-D, for Dog. The date is September 20th, 1994. The

20 call is to Who's Who Worldwide. And the employee is John

21 Stevens.

22 (Tape is played.)

23 MR. WHITE: Next is 1342. The transcript is
24 1342-D, for Dog. The date is January 3rd, 1995. The call
25 is to Sterling Who's Who. And the salesperson is Barbara

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5712

1 McCabe, M C C A B E.

2 THE COURT: This is 1342 --

3 MR. WHITE: D for Dog, your Honor.

4 (Tape is played.)

5 MR. WHITE: Next is 1352. The transcript is

6 1352-A, for Apple. The date is April 21st, 1993. The

7 call is to Who's Who Worldwide and the salesperson is

8 Larry DeWitt, D E W I T T.

9 (Tape is played.)

10 MR. WHITE: That's it for the tapes for now, your

11 Honor.

12 The government calls Alan Saffer, S A F F E R.

13 THE COURT: Step up and raise your right hand.

14

15 A L A N S A F F E R ,

16 called as a witness, having been first

17 duly sworn, was examined and testified

18 as follows:

19

20 THE COURT: Please be seated.

21 State your name and spell your entire name,

22 please.

23 THE WITNESS: My name is Alan Saffer.
24 S A F F E R.
25 THE COURT: How do you spell your first name?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5713
Saffer-direct/White


1 THE WITNESS: A L A N.

2 THE COURT: You may proceed.

3

4 DIRECT EXAMINATION

5 BY MR. WHITE:

6 Q Mr. Saffer, can you tell us how old you are?

7 A 59 years of age.

8 Q Where do you live?

9 A In Valley Stream, New York.

10 Q Are you married?

11 A Yes, I am.

12 Q Can you tell us how far you went in school?

13 A On a college level, six months, studying drafting at

14 Mechanics Institute in New York.

15 Q Are you currently employed?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And where do you work?

18 A Credit America.

19 Q And what sort of business is Credit America?

20 A They are a commercial finance company. They

21 specialize in leases and mortgages for people in the

22 petroleum industry.

23 Q And can you explain for us what sort of work you do
24 there?
25 A In -- I do telemarketing. And I set up appointments

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5714
Saffer-direct/White


1 for their sales staff. And also I am starting to do sales

2 on my own in the afternoon on a commission basis.

3 Q Now, did you ever work for a company known as Who's

4 Who Worldwide Registry?

5 A Yes, I did.

6 Q What was your position when you worked there?

7 A My title was associate director.

8 Q Can you describe briefly what you did as an associate

9 director?

10 A I would call people by telephone and try to sell them

11 a membership in Who's Who Worldwide.

12 Q Approximately when did you start working at Who's Who

13 Worldwide?

14 A Approximately July of 1990.

15 Q When did you stop working there?

16 A That was March 30th, 1995.

17 Q Why is it you stopped working there in March of '95?

18 A The postal inspectors came into the offices and said

19 that the company was under investigation.

20 Q Did anything happen to you on that day?

21 A Yes. I was arrested.

22 Q Now were you later charged with a crime?

23 A Yes, I was.
24 Q And what were you charged with?
25 A Conspiracy to commit mail fraud.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5715
Saffer-direct/White


1 Q And what did that charge relate to?

2 A Excuse me?

3 Q What did that charge relate to?

4 A It related to statements that I made over the

5 telephone and misrepresentations that I made in my sales

6 presentation.

7 Q At Who's Who?

8 A At Who's Who.

9 Q Now, did you commit that crime?

10 A Yes, I did.

11 Q Did you plead guilty to conspiracy to commit mail

12 fraud?

13 A Yes, I did.

14 Q And can you tell us approximately when you pled

15 guilty?

16 A It was November of 1997.

17 Q Now, have you committed any other crimes besides

18 that?

19 A Yes. That was during a civil trial in connection

20 with the Marquis Who's Who, I believe.

21 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor. May we

22 approach?

23 THE COURT: Yes. Come up .
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5716
Saffer-direct/White


1 (Whereupon, at this time the following took place

2 at the sidebar.)

3 THE COURT: Yes.

4 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I am seeking to

5 preclude eliciting any testimony concerning this.

6 I believe, based upon what I understand the

7 government intends to do, is they are going to elicit that

8 this man committed perjury at the Marquis civil trial.

9 Now, that would be, I suppose 404(b) evidence

10 against Mr. Gordon, because I imagine he will say

11 Mr. Gordon put him up to it.

12 We have no charges in this case of Mr. Gordon

13 inducing anybody else to commit perjury. The only

14 allegations of perjury in this case in that civil trial or

15 anywhere relate to Mr. Gordon's own testimony in that

16 civil trial. This is prejudicial . We were told there is

17 no 404(b) evidence to be admitted. And I seek to preclude

18 it.

19 MR. WHITE: If they don't want to cross-examine

20 him about it, I will not mention it.

21 THE COURT: They obviously are not going to

22 cross-examine him about it.

23 THE COURT: No one is going to attack him as
24 having fabricated in that earlier trial? If that's the
25 case I will be glad to not ask him.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5717
Saffer-direct/White


1 MR. JENKS: I am not agreeing to that.

2 MR. DUNN: Can we have a moment on that?

3 THE COURT: Sure.

4 (Defense counsel confer.)

5 THE COURT: What do you intend to bring out with

6 this witness, Mr. White?

7 MR. WHITE: I intend to bring out that he --

8 simply that he lied at that earlier proceeding.

9 THE COURT: That is not another crime th at he is

10 accused of; is that right?

11 MR. WHITE: His cooperation agreement says that

12 the government will not charge him with perjury in

13 connection with that lawsuit.

14 THE COURT: He was never charged with perjury,

15 nor was he convicted of perjury?

16 MR. WHITE: Correct.

17 THE COURT: So that's out of the way.

18 When you say did you commit other crimes, that's

19 a very subjective thing. He was never charged with any

20 crime.

21 MR. WHITE: Correct.

22 THE COURT: You want to bring out he committed

23 perjury?
24 MR. WHITE: Only if they are.
25 THE COURT: They are obviously going to ask about

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5718
Saffer-direct/White


1 it. So you can anticipate it.

2 Be careful about it. Mr. Trabulus is going to

3 watch it closely and object when he wants t o object in

4 addition to this objection.

5 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.

6 THE COURT: You have a right to make further

7 objections all along. I will let him bring it out.

8 Please bring it out quickly and get to it.

9 If they come out on cross-examination, and have a

10 field day with it, then you can come back on redirect.

11 MR. WHITE: For purposes of making sure we comply

12 with your Honor's ruling, can I ask a leading question,

13 like, were you untruthful in your testimony in the prior

14 case?

15 THE COURT: Yes. I will allow that.

16 MR. WHITE: Okay.

17

18 (Whereupon, at this time the following takes

19 place in open court.)

20 Q Mr. Saffer, you mentioned a lawsuit between Marquis

21 Who's Who and Who's Who Worldwide?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And were you untruthful in your testimony in
24 connection with that proceeding?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5719
Saffer-direct/White


1 Q Now, at the time that you pled guilty to conspiracy

2 to commit mail fraud, did you enter into an agreement with

3 the government?

4 A Yes, I did.

5 Q And are you testifying here today as part of your

6 agreement with the government?

7 A Yes, I am.

8 Q Can you tell us, what is your understanding that you

9 have to do under that agreement?

10 A I have to report any criminal activity, to tell the

11 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth; and to

12 agree to testify in court.

13 Q And what is your understanding of what the government

14 has agreed to do if you cooperate?

15 A The government has agreed to send a 5K letter to

16 Judge Spatt, indicating that I had fully cooperated with

17 the cooperation agreement.

18 Q An d what is your understanding of what the judge can

19 do if the government does write this letter?

20 A Judge Spatt can reduce my sentence.

21 Q Now, have you been sentenced yet?

22 A No, I haven't.

23 Q What is your understanding of what the maximum
24 sentence you can face is?
25 A A term of five years.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5720
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1 Q And can the judge who sentences you impose a fine?

2 A Yes, he can.

3 Q And what is your understanding of what the maximum

4 fine is?

5 A The maximum fine could be $250,000.

6 Q And when you are sentenced, can you be required to

7 make restitution for the losses caused as a result of the

8 fraud that you participated in?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Have you received any promises from the government

11 about what sentence you will receive?

12 A No.

13 Q Have you received any promises from anyone about what

14 sentence you will receive?

15 A No, I have not.

16 Q What is your understanding of who will ultimately

17 determine what your sentence will be?

18 A From what I understand, Judge Spatt will determine my

19 sentence.

20 Q Now, while you were employed at Who's Who Worldwide,

21 did you ever hear the term "black room?"

22 A Yes, I have.

23 Q Tell me was the black room was?
24 A The black room was a separate room from the other
25 part of the company, which housed approximately ten or

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5721
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1 twelve of some of the top salespersons at the company,

2 Who's Who Worldwide.

3 Q Now, while the black room was in existence, did you

4 sit in the black room?

5 A Yes, I did.

6 Q Now, do you know a woman named Laura Weitz, or Laura

7 Winters?

8 A Yes, I do.

9 Q And how do you know her?

10 MR. LEE: Objection, your Honor.

11 THE COURT: On what ground?

12 MR. LEE: The instruction. There was a prior --

13 THE COURT: Pardon me?

14 MR. LEE: May I approach, your Honor?

15 THE COURT: No. It is not necessary.

16 Overruled.

17 MR. WHITE: If I rephrase the question I believe

18 it will address Mr. Lee's concern.

19 THE COURT: Yes.

20 Q Did Ms. Weitz work at Who's Who Worldwide?

21 A Yes, she did.

22 Q When you arrived at the company in mid-1990, did she

23 work there?
24 A Yes, she did.
25 Q Already?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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1 A Yes.

2 Q Now, while the black room was in effect, was in

3 operation, did Ms. We itz work in the black room?

4 A Yes, for a period of time.

5 Q Now, do you know a person named Annette Haley?

6 A Yes, I do.

7 Q How do you know Annette Haley?

8 A She also was a salesperson at Who's Who Worldwide,

9 and she was in the black room, too.

10 Q And can you tell us approximately when Ms. Haley

11 joined Who's Who Worldwide?

12 A It was approximately 1994.

13 Q Now, do you know a man named Scott Michaelson?

14 A Yes, I do.

15 Q How do you know Mr. Michaelson?

16 A He was a salesperson at Who's Who Worldwide. And he

17 sat in the black room also.

18 Q Can you recall approximately when Mr. Michaelson

19 joined the company?

20 A I believe it was also about the same time, early

21 1994, maybe 1993, in the middle of 1993.

22 Q Now, do you know a person named Steve Rubin or Steve

23 Walden?
24 A Yes, I do.
25 Q And who is he?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5723
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1 A He was the salesperson at Who's Who Worldwide.

2 Q And do you know approximately when he joined the

3 company?

4 A Mr. Walden joined the company in about 1994 or

5 thereabouts.

6 Q Now, do you know a person named Tara Garboski, or

7 Tara Green?

8 A Yes, I do.

9 Q Now, can you tell us approximately when Ms. Garboski

10 joined Who's Who Worldwide?

11 A It was in the summer of 1990.

12 Q During the years that you were at Who's Who

13 Worldwide, can you tell us what her position at the

14 company was?

15 A In the beginning she was a salesperson, an associate

16 director, just like myself.

17 Q And then did she have another position?

18 A Yes. Then she went on to become manager -- a

19 manager.

20 Q Now , for the lion share of the time you were at Who's

21 Who Worldwide, did you have a supervisor?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And who was that?
24 A Well, it was basically Tara Green, my manager, my
25 supervisor.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5724
Saffer-direct/White


1 Q Now, do you know a man named Frank Martin?

2 A Yes, I do.

3 Q Who is Frank Martin?

4 A Frank Martin was a manager at Who's Who Worldwide.

5 Q And do you remember approximately when it was that

6 Mr. Martin worked at the company?

7 A Approximately 1991; approximately 1991.

8 Q And was there a period when Mr. Martin left the

9 company and returned?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Do you remember approximately when he returned?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And when did he return?

14 A Yes, in 1994, as a manager.

15 Q Can you describe what your job respo nsibilities at

16 Who's Who Worldwide were?

17 A To contact people by telephone and to sell a

18 membership in Who's Who Worldwide, basically sales and

19 telemarketing.

20 Q And where did you get the names and telephone numbers

21 of these potential customers?

22 A From my manager.

23 Q And did you receive these names and telephone numbers
24 from your manager on any sort of document?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5725
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1 Q And what sort of document was that?

2 A It was a lead card. It is a card that was mailed

3 into the company.

4 Q Now, did Mr. Gordon ever indicate to you where these

5 lead cards had come from?

6 MR. TRABULUS: Objection to form, your Honor.

7 THE COURT: Sustained as to form. You can pursue

8 it.

9 Q Did anyone at the company ever in dicate to you where

10 these lead cards had come from?

11 MR. TRABULUS: Same objection, your Honor.

12 THE COURT: Overruled.

13 A Yes. Mr. Gordon indicated that he would drop

14 mailings of about 100,000 at a time, and then the reply

15 cards would come in about two weeks after the drop.

16 Q You used the term "drop". Was that a term used by

17 Mr. Gordon?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And can you explain for us what your understanding is

20 of what that means?

21 A He was sending out -- he was contacting about 100,000

22 people to notify them of our existence. And they would

23 return a reply card, which was the lead card I was
24 referring to before, if they wanted to request a
25 membership.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5726
Saffer-direct/White


1 Q Now, did anyone ever say anything to you regarding

2 the cost of these cards?

3 A Yes. Mr. Gordon.

4 Q What did Mr. Gordon say?

5 A At times he would mention the fact that they cost him

6 approximately 15 to 25 dollars a card, 20 dollars a card.

7 Q Did anyone ever say anything regarding the

8 occupations or industries of people to whom the cards were

9 sent?

10 A Mister -- would you repeat the question?

11 Q Did anyone at the company ever say anything about the

12 occupations or industries to whom these cards -- the

13 people to whom these cards were sent?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Who is that?

16 A Mr. Gordon indicated he would hone in on a particular

17 industry.

18 Q Can you give us an example of an industry that

19 Mr. Gordon mentioned?

20 A The computer industry, for one.

21 Q Can you recall any others?

22 A Yes. And another time, the travel industry, and

23 health care industry.

24 Q Now, did anyone at the company ever say anything
25 regarding the names that had signed the letters that were

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5727
Saffer-direct/White


1 sent out to potential customers?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And who was that?

4 A Mr. Gordon.

5 Q What did Mr. Gordon say about that?

6 A He would indicate from time to time that you might

7 get calls at -- from people asking for a Cathy Ross. And

8 he mentioned Cathy Ross is the name that is used on a

9 particular letter for a particular industry.

10 Q Now, as a salesperson, did you ever notice any

11 pattern to the cards that you received?

12 A Yes.

13 Q What pattern did you observe?

14 A There was the pattern -- first of all, all of a

15 sudden all the leads were coming from people involved in

16 the computer industry at times. And then other times in

17 the travel industry. And then at other times, people in

18 the health care industry; and at times people in the

19 professional services industry also.

20 Q And can you explain what you mean by a pattern? How

21 was that a pattern?

22 A I would receive approximately 20 leads each morning,

23 lead cards. And I noticed that the pattern was as
24 follows: The lead cards for like a two, three week
25 period, would be mostly all of them in a computer

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5728
Saffer-direct/White


1 industry, or in a specific industry.

2 Q Now, did the lead cards that you would receive

3 contain any codes on them?

4 A Well, as I remember, some lead cards were printed in

5 one particular color, the printing. And there were some

6 numerals or letters on the right hand bottom corner --

7 yes, on the right hand bottom corner.

8 Q Now, did you ever have any discussions with any

9 salespeople -- other salespersons at the company --

10 regarding those codes, or colors of cards?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Who did you have that discussion with?

13 A A woman by the name of Angela Palmer who sat to the

14 right of me.

15 THE COURT: How do you spell Palmer?

16 THE WITNESS: P A L M E R.

17 Q Can you tell us the substance of that discussion?

18 MR. SCHOER: Objection.

19 THE COURT: What grounds?

20 MR. SCHOER: Hearsay.

21 THE COURT: Is Angela Palmer an employee?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, she was.

23 THE COURT: Of what company?
24 THE WITNESS: Who's Who Worldwide.
25 THE COURT: Overruled.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5729
Saffer-direct/White


1 Q Tell us your discussions with Angela Palmer ab out the

2 cards and the codes?

3 A She mentioned to me that she was showing me, talking

4 to me about a particular lead card, and she brought my

5 attention to the lower right-hand corner, which were

6 letters and numerals. It was in the form of a code. And

7 she mentioned to me that this particular code is from a

8 particular industry.

9 Q And subsequent to that conversation did you have a

10 conversation with any other salespeople regarding the

11 cards or codes on them?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Okay.

14 And who was that with?

15 A Scott Michaelson.

16 Q And tell us your discussions on that subject with

17 Mr. Michaelson?

18 A It was a brief discussion. Mr. Michaelson mentioned

19 the particular cards that he was using he didn't like the

20 cards and they were very hard to sell. They were of lower

21 echelons. The business titles were like general managers,

22 and things like that. Not presidents of corporations, who

23 were easier to sell.
24 Q Now, who is it that would provide you with these lead
25 cards?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5730
Saffer-direct/White


1 A My manager, Tara Green.

2 Q Did you ever receive cards from a manager that had

3 joke answers on them?

4 A Yes, occasionally I did.

5 Q Can you explain what sort of joke answers would be on

6 them?

7 A They were usually written in sometimes bold letters

8 that you got my name from a mailing list, or remove my

9 name from the mailing list, or other comments, that this

10 is nonsense, are you kidding, things like that.

11 Q Now, did you ever receive in addition to the lead

12 cards, Who's Who Worldwide nomination ballots?

13 A Yes, I did.

14 Q Can you tell us, when were nomination ballots first

15 used at Who's Who Worldwide?

16 A On or about 1993.

17 Q Now, prior to that time, when nomination ballots were

18 instituted, what percentage of individuals that you

19 contacted to become members, were nominated?

20 MR. LEE: Objection to the form of that question,

21 your Honor.

22 THE COURT: Yes. Sustained as to form.

23 A Repeat that question.
24 THE COURT: No. When I sustain the objection,
25 don't answer it. There will be another question,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5731
Saffer-direct/White


1 Mr. Saffer.

2 THE WITNESS: Thanks.

3 Q Prior to the time in 1993 when you said Who's Who

4 Worldwide instituted nomination ballots, did you ever

5 receive anything else besides a lead card to call a member

6 with?

7 A Yes.

8 Q What else would you receiv e besides a lead card?

9 A There was a time I was given a computerized list of

10 individuals to call.

11 Q I am going to get to that in a second, but let me

12 rephrase the question.

13 Did you ever -- prior to the time the nomination

14 ballots were instituted --

15 A Uh-huh.

16 Q -- did you ever receive nominations in any other

17 form?

18 A Oh, yes.

19 Q What form would you receive those nominations in?

20 A Sometimes it was in the form of a fax sheet, or on a

21 letterhead from a particular company, an individual's

22 company nominated somebody else.

23 Q From the time you began employment in 1990, until the
24 ballots were instituted in 1993, can you describe for us
25 how many nominations you received in that form?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5732
Saffer-direct/White


1 A Very few.

2 Q Now, after the nomination ballots were instituted in

3 1993, can you tell us what percentage of the leads you got

4 were ballots as opposed to leads cards.

5 MR. NELSON: Objection.

6 THE COURT: What grounds?

7 MR. NELSON: Both as to form and as to timing,

8 your Honor.

9 THE COURT: Overruled as to both.

10 Q You need me to repeat the question?

11 A What percentage?

12 Q Let me repeat the question.

13 After the ballots were instituted -- the

14 nomination ballots were instituted in 1993, what

15 percentage of the leads that you got were ballots as

16 opposed to lead cards?

17 A I would say about two percent.

18 Q And what percent then would be lead cards?

19 A 98 percent.

20 Q From whom did you receive these nomination ballots?

21 A I received the nomination ballots from Mr. Gordon.

22 Q Can you explain for us the proced ure by which the

23 nomination ballots would be handed out?
24 A At times Mr. Gordon would walk around and
25 sporadically distribute some ballot cards.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5733
Saffer-direct/White


1 Q And did you make any observations regarding when you

2 would be given nomination ballots?

3 A Yes.

4 Q When was it you would observe that you would get

5 nomination ballots?

6 A Normally when I was having a good day in sales, I

7 would receive -- he would have a tendency of giving me a

8 nomination ballot.

9 Q Now, did Mr. Gordon ever explain to you why he was

10 giving out nomination ballots in this fashion?

11 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

12 proceedings.)

13 THE COURT: Did you hear that question?

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.

15 THE COURT: You are thinking about it?

16 THE WITNESS: Yes.

17 THE COURT: Go ahead.

18 MR. WHITE: Maybe I can rephrase it and ask a

19 more general question?

20 THE COURT: Go ahead.

21 Q Did Mr. Gordon say anything regarding under what

22 circumstances a salesperson would receive nomination

23 ballots?
24 A Yes, he did.
25 He indicated that you would get nomination

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5734
Saffer-direct/White


1 ballots, which was a very good lead, over and above the

2 regular lead card, only if you are having good sales, if

3 you are selling. And if you are not, you are not going to

4 receive ballot cards.

5 Q Now, you mentioned before that in addition to the

6 nominations and the lead cards, you at times received

7 leads in the form of lists; is that correct?

8 A Yes.

9 Q What sort of lists are you refer ring to?

10 A It was a -- there seems to be a computerized list of

11 names, addresses and phone numbers in the business

12 context, business titles of individuals.

13 Q Now, can you tell us approximately how often you

14 received these type of lists?

15 A I recall in -- when I was working in Port Washington,

16 it must have been approximately 1991, or thereabouts, I

17 received a list. It was an optional -- I had an option to

18 use the list or not use the list.

19 Q Can you explain to us the circumstances under which

20 you would be offered the option to use these computerized

21 list?

22 MR. SCHOER: Objection to the form of the

23 question.
24 THE COURT: Overruled.
25 A It seemed to me when the lead cards were slow coming

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5735
Saffer-direct/White


1 in, Mr. Gordon off ered the salespeople these lists that

2 they could use, if they liked. And you were paid a higher

3 commission if you made a sale off of that list. It was

4 like a cold call.

5 Q What commission were you offered in connection with

6 making a sale from one of these lists?

7 A It was approximately 18 percent, 20 percent, in that

8 category.

9 Q And if you made a sale from a lead card, what would

10 be the commission the salesperson would earn typically?

11 A 12 and a half percent.

12 Q Now, did you make calls from these computerized lists

13 that you received?

14 A Yes, I did.

15 Q Now, did you learn where these lists -- what these

16 were lists of?

17 A Yes. Eventually I did.

18 Q And tell us what you learned.

19 A In the course of using that particular computerized

20 list, I came across some -- an individual or two who gave

21 me s ome flak about the fact that he was nominated, and he

22 stated that you -- that you had to get my name from a

23 mailing list.
24 MR. LEE: Objection, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5736
Saffer-direct/White


1 Strike out what the person allegedly said. The

2 jury is instructed to disregard it.

3 Q Did you call anyone whose name or address was

4 incorrect?

5 A Yes.

6 Q In what way was it incorrect?

7 MR. SCHOER: Objection.

8 THE COURT: How did you find out it was

9 incorrect?

10 THE WITNESS: Well, I received some flak from a

11 particular individual stating that --

12 MR. SCHOER: Objection.

13 THE COURT: Don't tell me what the individual

14 stated.

15 It was as a result of a conversation with another

16 person?

17 THE WITNESS: Yes .

18 THE COURT: Sustained.

19 Q Now, did you ever receive instructions from

20 Mr. Gordon about what to tell customers from where you had

21 obtained their names?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And what did Mr. Gordon say?
24 A He -- I heard him mention a few times, just never to
25 mention that you got the name, his name from -- or her

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5737
Saffer-direct/White


1 name -- from a mailing list. Never mention a mailing

2 list.

3 Q Did Mr. Gordon say anything regarding what you were

4 to tell customers when they asked that question?

5 A Repeat that?

6 Q Did Mr. Gordon ever say anything to you what you were

7 to answer to customers who asked, where did you get my

8 name?

9 A Yes. It was on an objection sheet, which stated at

10 my level I couldn't tell you. However, I could say that

11 some individuals are nominated, and some peoples' names

12 were submitted to our research department. There might

13 have been an article published about them in a magazine.

14 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, may I just have one

15 moment?

16 THE COURT: Yes.

17 (Mr. White confers with Inspector Pagano.)

18 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I am sorry.

19 THE COURT: It is all right.

20 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

21 proceedings.)

22 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, at this point we will

23 play a two or three minute tape.
24 THE COURT: We will take a break instead of
25 that.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5738
Saffer-direct/White


1 You say it is two or three minutes?

2 MR. WHITE: I think so.

3 THE COURT: We will try it.

4 MR. WHITE: We will squeeze it in before 12:30.

5 THE COU RT: Let's move along. I mentioned

6 August, but I was only jesting.

7 What is the exhibit number?

8 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, it is 1403.

9 Your Honor, this is Exhibit 1403, recorded on

10 February 15th, 1995 at Who's Who Worldwide.

11 We are going to be playing the first excerpt,

12 which goes up to the middle of page 2.

13 THE COURT: Very well.

14 (Tape is played.)

15 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we will recess

16 until 1:30 for lunch. Keep an open mind. We will see you

17 at 1:30.

18 Have a nice lunch.

19 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the

20 courtroom.)

21 (Luncheon Recess.)

22

23
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5739
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1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N

2

3 THE CLERK: Jury entering.

4

5 A L A N S A F F E R ,

6 called as a witness, having been previously

7 duly sworn, was examined and testified as

8 follows:

9

10 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the

11 jury.

12 You may proceed.

13

14 DIRECT EXAMINATION (cont'd)

15 BY MR. WHITE:

16 Q Mr. Saffer, the tape we heard before we broke for

17 lunch, prior to that time, prior to court, have you ever

18 heard that tape before?

19 A No.

20 Q Now, do you know what Dun & Bradstreet printouts are?

21 A Yes. I know what they are.

22 Q And what are they?

23 A They are lists of people in various industries. And
24 I believe you could purchase this list, if you wish.
25 Q Now, did you use any written materials when you spoke

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5740
Saffer-direct/White


1 with a potential customer on the t elephone?

2 A Yes, I did.

3 Q And what written materials would you use?

4 A It was a script that was provided to me.

5 Q Have you ever heard the term pitch sheet?

6 A Yes.

7 Q What is a pitch sheet?

8 A That's the outline that was given to me to use to

9 present to a potential customer.

10 Q And by whom would that be given to you?

11 A By the managers. They used to distribute them.

12 Q Now, have you ever heard the term, objection sheet?

13 A Yes, I have.

14 Q And what is an objection sheet?

15 A It is also a pitch sheet. It is a supplement to the

16 initial pitch sheet.

17 Q And under what circumstances would you use an

18 objection sheet?

19 A If you were asked a question and someone was

20 objecting to purchase a membership, it was an objection

21 sheet you would use to overcome the objection to entice

22 them to purchas e a membership.

23 Q Now, in connection with your work at Who's Who
24 Worldwide had you ever heard the term close, C L O S E?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5741
Saffer-direct/White


1 Q And what does it mean to close?

2 A To close, it was like a power close. Statements for

3 us to use, to again entice someone to purchase a

4 membership.

5 Q And where in terms of your sales presentation would

6 the close come?

7 A At the end of the presentation, of the script.

8 Q It is used to close the deal?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Have you ever heard the term "a drop close?"

11 A Yes, I have.

12 Q What is a "drop close?"

13 A A drop close is to be used if a perspective member

14 that you are speaking to, if I felt the membership was a

15 little too much for him at that time, there were different

16 prices to different memberships. There were different

17 durations to different memberships, which had different

18 prices.

19 A drop close was used to offer a particular

20 person I was speaking to a membership that was a shorter

21 duration and more affordable for him.

22 Q Did you ever see a document at Who's Who Worldwide

23 called "power statements?"
24 A Yes.
25 Q And what were "power statements?"

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5742
Saffer-direct/White


1 A Power statements were to be used, again, to persuade

2 someone and entice someone to purchase a membership. It

3 is a sales technique.

4 Q All these various types of scripts you described, did

5 anyone at the company ever tell you who had written them?

6 A Well, Mr. Gordon indicated that he did, because he

7 would mention to us on many occasions th at his way was the

8 best. And he was in the telemarketing business for

9 approximately 50 years, I believe. And that these pitches

10 do work. And they had been proven before to be

11 successful. And I know that I had to use them.

12 Q Did you observe Mr. Gordon ever making written

13 changes to scripts?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Can you describe that for us.

16 A This was a meeting of all the salespeople where

17 Mr. Gordon was actually reading a particular script to us

18 to show us how in his eyes the pitch should come across to

19 the person you are speaking to. And in the course of

20 bringing a pitch, he made an adjustment in the pitch of a

21 particular line say, and I saw him writing the corrections

22 on that sheet.

23 Q Now, can you tell us how often, if at all, the
24 scripts were changed or revised?
25 A Quite frequently.

HARRY R APAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5743
Saffer-direct/White


1 Q Can you give us an idea of the frequency?

2 A Sometimes they were changed twice a day. And

3 sometimes once or twice a month.

4 Q Would it vary, the frequency?

5 A Yes, it would vary, yes.

6 Q Let me put this binder of exhibits in front of you.

7 If you can take a look at that book at the

8 following exhibits: 327 through 333, 335 --

9 A 327.

10 Q Let me go batch by batch.

11 Start with 327 through 333.

12 A Yes.

13 Q For identification.

14 327 and 328, do you recognize what those are?

15 A Yes, I do.

16 Q And what are they?

17 A They are power statements.

18 Q Do you recognize them as ones provided to you in the

19 course of your employment at Who's Who Worldwide?

20 A Yes, I do.

21 Q All right.

22 Now, the next batch is 329 through 333 and 335

23 through 337.
24 A Yes, I recognize these.
25 Q What sort of documents are those?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5744
Saffer-direct/White


1 A These were objection lists, objection sheets.

2 Q Were those provided to you while you were at Who's

3 Who Worldwide?

4 A Yes, they were.

5 Q Now, if you can look at Exhibits 343 through 346 --

6 A Yes.

7 Q What do you recognize those documents as?

8 A They were all drop closes.

9 Q And were those documents -- you recognize those as

10 documents provided to you while you worked at Who's Who

11 Worldwide?

12 A Yes, I do.

13 Q And finally, if you look at 347 through 392 -- I am

14 sorry, correction, 347 through 386, and 391 and 392.

15 A You want me to look through each one?

16 Q You can page through them.

17 ( Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

18 proceedings.)

19 A These are all pitch sheets I used in the past.

20 Q At Who's Who Worldwide?

21 A At Who's Who Worldwide.

22 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the government offers

23 Exhibits 337 -- 327 through 333, 335 through 337, 343
24 through 386, 391 and 392.
25 THE COURT: Any objection?

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1 MR. TRABULUS: No.

2 THE COURT: All of those exhibits in evidence.

3 (Government's Exhibits 327 through 333 received

4 in evidence.)

5 (Government's Exhibits 335 through 337 received

6 in evidence.)

7 (Government's Exhibits 343 through 386 received

8 in evidence.)

9 (Government's Exhibit 391 received in evidence.)

10 (Government's Exhibit 392 received in evidence.)

11 Q Mr. Saffer, if you can t urn to Exhibit 361; and if

12 you can look a third of the way down the page, to the line

13 where you -- where it begins, you can anonymously

14 nominate.

15 A A third of the way down?

16 Q Do you see that?

17 A The second paragraph?

18 Q Let me see if I can point it out.

19 (Counsel approaches the witness stand.)

20 A I see.

21 Q Now, could you read that sentence aloud for us,

22 please.

23 A You can anonymously nominate up to two qualifying
24 individuals annually much like you were nominated.
25 Q And can you look in the upper left-hand corner and

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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1 tell us the date of that pitch sheet?

2 A 12/22/92.

3 THE COURT: Do you want to pull the microphone

4 closer?

5 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.

6 Q If you look at Exhibit 392, which is in the back of

7 the book.

8 A Yes.

9 Q In the middle of the page, can you read the numbered

10 paragraph that starts with 3.

11 A Yes.

12 As a member you can anonymously nominate up to

13 two qualifying individuals annually, just like you have

14 been nominated.

15 Q If you can go back to Exhibit 374.

16 A 374.

17 Q And read the paragraph in the middle which is

18 numbered 3.

19 A As a member you can anonymously nominate up to two

20 qualifying individuals annually, just like you have been

21 nominated.

22 Q Okay.

23 Now, turn to Exhibit 348.
24 A Yes, I have it.
25 Q And if you can look about two-thirds of the way down

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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1 the page, there is a paragraph that begins with

2 memberships are only availabl e.

3 A Yes, I see it.

4 Q Could you read that aloud for us, slowly.

5 A Memberships are only available through normal

6 attrition of the present members. Right now there is a

7 lifetime and a five-year membership available.

8 Q Now, turn to Exhibit 353.

9 Would you read the paragraph two-thirds of the

10 way down that starts with, memberships are available?

11 A The memberships are available through normal

12 attrition of the established members, and they become

13 available twice a year.

14 Shall I continue?

15 Q No, that's fine.

16 And look at the next one, 354. Again, there is a

17 paragraph that says that memberships are available.

18 A I see it.

19 Q Is that the same language as the one you just read?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Turn to the next page, 355, Exhibit 355.

22 Do you see the paragraph that begins with

23 Mr. Blank, memb erships become available?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Okay.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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1 Read us the first sentence of that paragraph.

2 A Mr. Blank, memberships become available once or twice

3 a year, and they become available because of normal

4 attrition of the existing members.

5 Q Okay.

6 Now, turn to Exhibit 363.

7 Now, the first paragraphs of this pitch, are

8 those the first things you would say to a customer on the

9 telephone?

10 A The first paragraph?

11 Q Yes.

12 A Yes.

13 Q Now, can you read us the first two paragraphs as if

14 you were on the telephone to a customer?

15 A Hello, Mr. Blank. This is -- I would say Alan

16 Saffer. I am the associate director of Who's Who

17 Worldwide. We are the publishers of the Who's Who

18 Registry of global b usiness leaders. We are also the

19 largest Who's Who membership organization in the world. A

20 while back our membership director contacted you or tried

21 to contact you to qualify you as a candidate for a listing

22 in the Who's Who Registry and for possible membership in

23 Who's Who Worldwide.
24 The second paragraph also?
25 Q Yes.

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1 A At that time the memberships had been closed because

2 they are available only through normal attrition of

3 established members. A few memberships have just become

4 available.

5 What I need to do now is to conduct a brief

6 interview to determine your eligibility for inclusion in

7 the Who's Who registry of global business leaders, and a

8 possible membership in Who's Who Worldwide.

9 Q Okay.

10 Now, if y ou look at the next exhibit, 364. And,

11 again, read us the first paragraph -- the first sentence

12 of the second paragraph.

13 A I am moving your sticker.

14 At that time, because of the normal attrition of

15 the established members we had only a five-year membership

16 available, which is fully committed at this time. Right

17 now we have a two-year membership available due to normal

18 attrition.

19 Q If you can flip ahead to Exhibit 372.

20 Do you see where it says start interview?

21 A Yes, I do.

22 Q And the next paragraph, is that what follows after

23 you finished interviewing the customer?
24 A Yes, based on the information we compiled?
25 Q Yes.

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1 A Yes.

2 Q Read the first two sentences of that paragraph.

3 A Based on the i nformation we have compiled, I am going

4 to submit your application to the public affairs office

5 for your inclusion in the Who's Who Registry, and as a

6 possible member of Who's Who Worldwide. There is usually

7 a waiting list for memberships because of the obvious

8 prestige of being listed in Who's Who. But executives who

9 want the exclusive networking benefits associated with the

10 membership, and this is because our members are the best

11 target audience in the world.

12 Q Okay.

13 Now, if you would look on Exhibit 329.

14 A Objection sheet.

15 Q Now, paragraph two of that says "literature." What

16 does that refer to?

17 A If somebody asks you to send me literature, this is

18 an objection that was to be used.

19 Q Can you tell us what response you were to give if the

20 customer asked for literature?

21 A We were instructed to say that w e are not a marketing

22 company. We don't seek new members. You have been

23 selected and accepted. Memberships are available through
24 normal attrition. We did send you a letter with the
25 authorization form which you sent back to us.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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1 Q Okay.

2 Now putting aside those scripts, were you in your

3 five years at Who's Who Worldwide, ever informed of any

4 limit on the number of memberships you could sell?

5 A No. It was unlimited.

6 Q Were memberships available only once or twice per

7 year?

8 A No. They were available at all times.

9 Q In your five years at Who's Who Worldwide were you

10 ever informed that there was a waiting list for

11 memberships?

12 A No.

13 Q Were you ever informed that memberships were filled

14 and you could not sell any more?

15 A No. I was never informed.

16 Q Now, did memberships in Who's Who Worldwide only

17 become available through attrition of existing members?

18 A No.

19 Q Did you have to wait until an existing member died or

20 dropped out of membership before you could sell another

21 membership?

22 A No.

23 Q Now, as it said in Exhibit 329, was it true that you
24 did not solicit new members?
25 A No, that was not true. We did solicit new members --

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1 prospective members.

2 Q Prospective.

3 Was it ever the case that you just had a few

4 memberships suddenly open up?

5 A No. They were always available.

6 Q Okay.

7 Now, if you can look back at the exhibit book at

8 366.

9 A Yes.

10 Q Could you read the paragraph that begins, after the

11 start interview.

12 A Listings in the registry and memberships in Who's Who

13 Worldwide are available through normal attrition of the

14 established members. Who's Who Worldwide members receive

15 so many exclusive complimentary privileges, which is the

16 reason we get over 2,000 applications a day.

17 Unfortunately, not everyone qualifies and most people are

18 denied.

19 Q Denied what?

20 A Membership, I am sorry.

21 Q Now, if you can turn to Exhibit 374; and if you can

22 read the second paragraph of that?

23 A The Who's Who Registry is limited to 60,000 business
24 leaders who are nominated, usually by established members
25 and qualified for inclusion in the Who's Who Registry.

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1 What I need -- what I need now i s to verify your

2 information to determine your status for inclusion in the

3 registry because only five percent of all nominees are

4 accepted.

5 Q Could you look in the upper right hand corner and

6 tell us the date of that pitch sheet?

7 A 1/10/94.

8 Q If you turn to the next exhibit, Exhibit 375.

9 A Yes.

10 Q And if you read the first -- look at the second

11 paragraph after, start interview.

12 A Yes.

13 Q That begins with this starts wonderful.

14 A Yes.

15 Q Could you read the sentence, two sentences after

16 that.

17 A I think you will make an important addition to the

18 Who's Who Registry and membership. As a point of interest

19 only about 14 percent of these individuals who apply for

20 inclusion are actually accepted.

21 Q And what is the date of that pitch sheet?

22 A That is 1/10/94.

23 Q The same one you just read for us before?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q If you turn now to Exhibit 379; and if you can

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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1 read -- look at the third paragraph, the last sentence,

2 that begins with, in fact.

3 A Yes.

4 It states: In fact, we receive about 5,000

5 requests each month for inclusion, and we accept less than

6 1,000 new members.

7 Q Now, if you can turn to 383.

8 First of all, can you tell us the date of that

9 pitch sheet?

10 A Yes. 12/19/94.

11 Q And if you can read the last sentence of the third

12 paragraph.

13 A Based on this interview?

14 Q Yes.

15 A Based on this interview I can recommend you for

16 inclusion. As a point of interest only about seven

17 percent of those candidates who apply for inclusion are

18 act ually accepted. So in this light, we offer you our

19 congratulations.

20 Q And so, on December 19th, 1994, it says seven percent

21 of the candidates who applied for inclusion are actually

22 accepted; is that correct?

23 A That is correct.
24 Q Now, turn to the next exhibit, to Exhibit 385, sir.
25 Now, what is the date of that pitch sheet?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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1 A 12/20/94.

2 Q So, that's the day after the one that you just read

3 to us?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q All right.

6 And if you can look at the fourth paragraph and

7 read the last sentence that begins with, in fact.

8 A In fact, we receive about 5,000 requests each month

9 for inclusion, and accept less than 1,000 new members.

10 Q Now, 1,000 out of 5,000 would be 20 percent; is that

11 right?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q And that's the day after it was seven percent; is

14 that right?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q Now, if you look at Exhibit 384, what is the date of

17 that pitch sheet?

18 A 12/21/94.

19 Q So, that's the following day; is that correct?

20 A That's correct.

21 Q And look at the third paragraph and read us the last

22 sentence?

23 A As a point of interest only 14 percent of those
24 candidates who apply for inclusion are actually accepted.
25 So please accept our congratulations.

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1 Q That's a day after it was 20 percent, and two days

2 after it was 7 percent; is that correct?

3 A That is correct.

4 Q You can put those aside for a moment.

5 Now, among the customers that you spoke with in

6 your years at Who's Who Worldwide who wished to purchase a

7 membership, what percentage were accepted?

8 A Approximately 98 percent.

9 Q Was it true that only 7 or 14 or 20 percent were

10 actually accepted?

11 A No. It was not true.

12 Q Based on your years there, was it true that most

13 people were denied membership?

14 A Could you repeat that question.

15 Q Based on your years working at Who's Who Worldwide,

16 was it true that most people were denied membership?

17 A No, that's not true. They didn't wish to purchase

18 the membership.

19 Q Now, if you can go back to the book and look at

20 Exhibit 327.

21 Now, that's what you described to us before as a

22 power statement?

23 A A power statement.
24 Q Could you read power statement number 5.
25 A Actually, Mr. Blank, we are a member-run

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT R EPORTER

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1 organization. The members set the price, which is very

2 low. This is the reason we are very selective, because

3 anyone -- because everyone wants to become a member.

4 Q Okay.

5 Now, if you can flip to Exhibit 358, and if you

6 can read the first line of the fourth paragraph.

7 A Mr. Blank, when you are a member of Who's Who

8 Worldwide and you are listed in Who's Who Registry, you

9 are in good company, because many of our members are

10 people you have read and heard about everyday, and maybe

11 this membership is not for you.

12 Q You lost me. Maybe I am looking at the wrong thing.

13 (Counsel approaches the witness stand.)

14 A I am sorry, I'm sorry.

15 Q If you look at the fourth paragraph of that exhibit.

16 A Yes.

17 Q And just read us the first line?

18 A Mr. Blank, as you know, Who's Wh o Worldwide is a

19 member-run organization.

20 Q If you go down to the eighth paragraph, the one that

21 starts with, right now.

22 A Yes.

23 Q Read that for us.
24 A Right now the durations available are: A lifetime
25 membership and a five-year membership.

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1 The lifetime membership is a split billing charge

2 of $490 now, and $97 in December when the registry was

3 released. The five-year membership is only $290 now and

4 $97 in December. This is a one time membership charge,

5 and there are no annual dues or fees. The members

6 themselves formulated this split billing policy.

7 Q If you can look at 386, please.

8 Do you see at the bottom at one point it says get

9 card number and expiration date?

10 A At the bottom?

11 Q Near the bo ttom of Exhibit 386.

12 A It is folded in half at the bottom. I have to take

13 it out.

14 Q All right, if you take it out of the plastic, do you

15 see where it says get card number and expiration date?

16 A Yes, I do.

17 Q Read us the sentence right above that.

18 A Our established members asked us to bill new members

19 by Visa and Master Card so the billing would be more

20 convenient. Which do you prefer.

21 Q Now you can put that back in the plastic.

22 Look at 360.

23 A Yes.
24 Q Do you see at the bottom near the dotted line it says
25 via established members?

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1 A Yes, I do.

2 Q Would you read that for us.

3 A The established members brought in Visa and Master

4 Card to make billing more convenient for new members.

5 Whi ch do you prefer Visa or Master Card.

6 Q Now you can put the book aside for a moment.

7 Did you ever hear any discussions with Mr. Gordon

8 regarding the statements in the pitches that Who's Who was

9 a member-run organization?

10 A Yes, I did.

11 Q Can you explain the circumstances under which you

12 heard this?

13 A It was not during a meeting. It was in his office

14 and Mr. Gordon had mentioned Who's Who is a member-run

15 organization. I happened to be a member, so it is a

16 member-run organization. And he was smiling when he said

17 that.

18 Q Now, from your five years working there, who is it

19 that ran Who's Who Worldwide?

20 A Mr. Gordon.

21 Q If you look back in the book at page 347.

22 A Yes.

23 Q Could you read the first paragraph of that for us.
24 A Hello, Mr. Blank. This is, I would say Alan Saffer;
25 I am the ass ociate director of Who's Who Worldwide. We

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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1 are the publishers of Who's Who of American Business

2 Leaders.

3 Mr. Blank, the board of governors sent you a

4 letter indicating you have been named and confirmed for

5 inclusion in the platinum edition of the Who's Who

6 Registry. We never received your authorization form. I

7 would like to congratulate you and get the additional

8 information now for the editing department.

9 Q Now, in your five years at Who's Who Worldwide, did

10 you ever meet anyone who was a member of the board of

11 governors?

12 A No, not to my knowledge.

13 Q Did you ever observe any meetings of the board of

14 governors?

15 A No. I never observed a meeting of the board of

16 governors.

17 Q Okay.

18 Look at Exhibi t 381.

19 Look at the fourth paragraph starting with

20 generally.

21 A Yes.

22 Q Read the fourth sentence of that.

23 A Generally our members -- I am sorry, generally our
24 membership committee and listing department approves those
25 individuals who are accomplished business leaders and

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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1 professionals. Inclusion in Who's Who Worldwide offers

2 immediate recognition for those individuals who qualify.

3 Q Now, in your five years at Who's Who Worldwide did

4 you ever meet anyone who was a member of the membership

5 committee?

6 A To the best of my knowledge, no.

7 Q Did you ever observe any meetings of a membership

8 committee?

9 A No.

10 Q All right.

11 Now, can you look at Exhibit 333?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And the paragra ph numbered four, says, how long in

14 business. Now, what is that a reference to?

15 A This is from an objection sheet. If somebody should

16 ask me how long we have been in business, this is the

17 objection that I would use.

18 Q And what is the answer that you are supposed to give?

19 A Many, many years, long before I got here.

20 Q Now you can put the book aside again.

21 In addition to that written objection sheet did

22 Mr. Gordon ever give you any other instructions about what

23 to say when customers asked you how long Worldwide had
24 been in business?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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1 Q And what did he say?

2 A That you could say, well, at one time I worked for

3 General Motors, to overcome this objection, at one time I

4 worked for General Motors, and I don't know how long they

5 had been in business. And then go on with the pitch

6 sheet.

7 Q New, during your telephone sales calls, did you ask

8 customers any questions?

9 A Yes, I did.

10 Q Tell us what sort of questions you had asked?

11 A I would ask them their name, whether they used a

12 middle initial in business, any professional designations

13 after the name, such as Esquire, and things like that.

14 Their business address, the name of the company, business

15 address, their location address and geographically where

16 they conduct their business.

17 Q And what was the purpose of these questions?

18 A That was to sound like part of the interview.

19 Q Now, in your five years at the company, were you ever

20 provided with any written qualifications that customers

21 had to meet?

22 A No, not written.

23 Q Were you provided with any written gu idelines at all
24 regarding how to determine if a customer was qualified?
25 A No.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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1 Q Now, were you ever given any oral instructions

2 regarding customers' qualifications?

3 A Yes.

4 Q All right.

5 What instructions -- first of all, who gave you

6 these instructions?

7 A Mr. Gordon.

8 Q And what instructions were you given?

9 A He mentioned that he didn't want anybody with the --

10 anybody with an "assistant" in a business title. Or he

11 didn't want a school teacher.

12 Q Now, aside from specific industries or -- aside from

13 specific positions or titles that he did not want, did you

14 receive any other instructions?

15 A No.

16 Q Now, how is it that you determined if a customer was

17 qualified?

18 A Mainly by h is business title.

19 Q Now, did you ever discuss the qualifications of

20 customers with other employees?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Okay.

23 Can you tell us what the substance of those
24 discussions were?
25 A This was mainly during lunch, in the lunchroom. I

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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1 had mentioned a few times that it seems to be

2 qualifications are as follows: If you had a credit card

3 you could become a member. If you are breathing and you

4 had a credit card, you could become a member. It was an

5 actual joke that was around the office.

6 Q Now, did you ever receive any instructions regarding

7 what to do with cards of qualified people who did not want

8 to purchase a membership?

9 A Can you repeat that again?

10 Q Did you ever receive any instructions regarding what

11 you should do with the cards of qualified people who did

12 not want to purchase a membership?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And what instructions did you receive?

15 A To just write NG on the card if they didn't purchase

16 a membership, and put my initials on the card.

17 Q And then, after you did that, what, if anything, did

18 you do with the card?

19 A At the end of the day I would have a group of NG

20 cards with my initials on it. And I was instructed to put

21 it in an NG box marked "NG" at the end of the day.

22 Q Now, in your conversations with customers on the

23 telephone did you ever adjust the level of membership that
24 you offered them based on their business title?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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1 Q Can you explain what you mean?

2 A Well, there were different durat ions of memberships

3 that had different prices, from high to low. And if I was

4 talking to, say, a manager of a specific company, it could

5 have been a small company, I wouldn't really emphasize a

6 lifetime membership, which is a very expensive membership,

7 because it would be out of his range. So I would hone in

8 on trying to sell him a five year or three-year

9 membership, a less expensive membership.

10 Q Did you ever receive any instructions from Mr. Gordon

11 regarding what level of membership to offer a customer?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And what were you told?

14 A This was, I believe, during a meeting, he had

15 mentioned that presidents of companies, of large companies

16 usually would have a very large salary, like 100,000 or

17 above, or 200,000, so they could afford a lifetime

18 membership. You try to sell them a lifetime membership or

19 a five-year membership.

20 Whereas, a manager of information services,

21 somebody in the computer industry, would only be making,

22 say, $40,000 a year, so he couldn't really afford a

23 lifetime membership, you know, hone in on a lesser price
24 membership, like a three-year membership. Some of them
25 would take a five-year membership. But most of the times

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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1 their pocketbook would be able to afford a three-year

2 membership, say, or lesser.

3 Q Now, when a salesperson at Who's Who Worldwide made a

4 sale, would they prepare a written document?

5 A Yes.

6 Q What would they prepare?

7 A It was an order sheet, a membership order sheet.

8 Q And on this membership, or this order sheet, where

9 would the salesperson who made the sale indicate that?

10 A That was ind icated on the top right-hand corner.

11 Q Could you explain what the commission structure was

12 at Who's Who Worldwide.

13 A The commission structure was 12 and a half percent of

14 the sale.

15 Q Were there any occasions when that 12 and a half

16 percent would be split among more than one salesperson?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Can you give us an example of one of those sort of

19 circumstances.

20 A Yes.

21 If somebody else called in and I took a call for

22 another salesperson, say, if I took a call for Scott

23 Michaelson or Sue Mantell, or another salesperson, and I
24 took the call, and I told them I could help them, and if I
25 made that sale I would split the commission with the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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1 initial salesperson that they wanted to speak to. And I

2 would get seven and a half percent, and the other

3 salesperson would get five percent.

4 Q Now, did Mr. Gordon ever say anything to you during

5 the time that you were at Who's Who, regarding why it was

6 that customers purchased these memberships?

7 A Yes, because they -- they had egos, and it was like

8 an ego thing for them.

9 Q Did Mr. Gordon ever say anything to you regarding how

10 the benefits related to the decision to purchase a

11 membership?

12 A Yes, he indicated the benefits were just icing on the

13 cake for that particular member to purchase a membership.

14 Q Okay.

15 Let me show you Exhibit 388 for Identification.

16 (Handed to the witness.)

17 Q Do you recognize that?

18 A Yes.

19 Q What is it?

20 A This is the Who's Who Registry of American Business

21 Leaders, the 1991 edition. I believe that's the first

22 edition.

23 Q Is that one of the Who's Who Registries that you sold
24 in the time that you were there?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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1 Q And if you take a look at Defendant's Exhibits Q and

2 P, Defendant's Exhibit Q and Defendant's Exhibit P, are

3 those later editions that were sold at Who's Who

4 Worldwide?

5 (Handed to the witness.)

6 A Yes, they are.

7 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the government offers

8 Exhibit 388.

9 THE COURT: Any objection?

10 MR. TRABULUS: No.

11 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 388 in

12 evidence.

13 (Government's Exhibit 388 received in evidence.)

14 Q Mr. Saffer, have you ever heard the term B-Balance?

15 A Yes, I have.

16 Q And what is the B-Balance referring to?

17 A Well, when somebody requested a membership, there was

18 a split billing for a five-year membership it was $290

19 now, at the time they purchased the membership, usually on

20 the credit card. And then the balance of $97 was invoiced

21 to them in December before the registry was published and

22 released. That the -- that's the balance of the

23 membership. B-Balance is the balance of the payment.
24 Q That $97 payment?
25 A Yes.

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1 Q Now, when was the customer billed for that B-Balance

2 payment in relation to when they purchased the membership?

3 A When they purchased the membership they were billed

4 immediately. And for the B-balance, the $97, they were

5 invoiced in December of that year, right before the

6 registry was released.

7 Q Now, if a customer did not pay the B-Balance, would

8 he or she receive a directory?

9 A No, they wouldn't.

10 Q Now, did you ever receive any instructions from

11 Mr. Gordon about whether or not you should advise the

12 customers about the B-Balance?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Okay.

15 When did you receive those instructions?

16 A Back in about 1990 it started, during a meeting when

17 Mr. Gordon advised us not to mention the B-Balance of

18 $97.

19 Q And what, if anything, did you say when he said that?

20 A Well, I mentioned that that's misrepresentation, and

21 I don't intend to do it, not to mention the balance of

22 $97.

23 Q What was Mr. Gordon's response?
24 A We had a slight argument back and forth about it.
25 Him insisting that I should, and me insisting that I am

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5770
Saffer-direct/White


1 not going to.

2 Q When you say him insisting that you should, should

3 what?

4 A Shouldn't mention the balance of $97, I am sorry.

5 Q Well, did you subsequently receive any other

6 instructions from Mr. Gordon regarding that B-Balance?

7 A At a different time, in other words?

8 Q Yes.

9 A He mentioned after that, always mention the B-Balance

10 of $97.

11 Q Now, after the meeting where you had an argument with

12 him, did he ever give any other instructions -- shortly

13 after that did he ever give any other instructions?

14 A Shortly after the meeting?

15 Q Yes.

16 A In reference to the B-Balance you are talking about?

17 Q Yes, yes.

18 A After that meeting, about a week later he had another

19 meeting, where he said to mention the $97 B-Balance.

20 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, may I have one moment?

21 THE COURT: Yes.

22 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in th e

23 proceedings.)
24 Q Now, Mr. Saffer, at the time that -- during the years
25 that you worked at Who's Who Worldwide, was there a quota

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5771
Saffer-direct/White


1 on the number of sales that salespersons had to make?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Can you tell us approximately what it was?

4 A When I was in the black room in Lake Success, in the

5 Lake Success office, the quota I believe was 15 or 18, one

6 of the two, sales a week that you had to make.

7 Q And was it different -- was it ever different at

8 other times?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Was it -- was the quota the same or different if you

11 were not in the black room?

12 A The people who were not in the black room had a

13 slightly lower quota.

14 Q Now, did you ever receive any instructions from

15 Mr. Gordon regarding what wo uld happen to a salesperson

16 who would not meet the quota?

17 A If they were in the black room?

18 Q If they were anywhere.

19 A If they did not meet the quota for two weeks in a row

20 they would be fired.

21 Q Now, if you were in the black room and did not meet

22 the quota, what would be the consequences?

23 A Then you would be moved from the black room to the
24 other room, where the other salespeople were.
25 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I have no further

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5772
Saffer-direct/White


1 questions.

2 THE COURT: All right.

3 Cross-examination.

4

5 CROSS-EXAMINATION

6 BY MR. TRABULUS:

7 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Saffer, I am Norman Trabulus,

8 Mr. Gordon's attorney.

9 A Yes.

10 Q Mr. Saffer, did you ever testify in the grand jury in

11 this case ?

12 A The grand jury?

13 Q Did you ever testify before the grand jury?

14 A No.

15 Q Did you have any meetings prior to your testimony

16 today either with Mr. White, Ms. Scott, or any agents,

17 agents such as Inspector Biegelman, Inspector Pagano, any

18 others?

19 A Yes.

20 Q On how many times did you have such meetings?

21 A I would say approximately ten times.

22 Q During any of those ten meetings did you ever see

23 anybody speaking to you, who was asking you any questions,
24 taking any notes?
25 A Yes. At one of the meetings.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5773
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I request production

2 of the notes.

3 THE COURT: Are there any notes?

4 By who? Who took the notes?

5 THE WITNESS: An Inspector Biegelman.

6 THE COURT: Does Inspector Biegelman have any

7 notes, Mr. White?

8 MR. WHITE: Yes. They were produced to the

9 defendants.

10 MR. TRABULUS: I have them. They were misfiled

11 here. I have them.

12 THE COURT: All right.

13 Q Just one meeting; is that right?

14 A Yes.

15 Q At which there were notes taken?

16 A That's right.

17 Q Now, you testified, did you not that -- withdrawn.

18 You say that Mr. Gordon told you back in 1990

19 that you were not to mention the B-Balance; is that

20 correct?

21 A That's right.

22 Q And you say this was at a meeting; is that correct?

23 A That's right.
24 Q And there were other salespeople there at that point
25 in time?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5774
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 A That's correct.

2 Q And you alone spoke up for not mentioning the

3 B-balance; is that right?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q And you were an employee who had just been hired by

6 Mr. Gordon; is that correct?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And nobody else besides yourself spoke up for

9 mentioning the B-Balance; is that correct?

10 A That's right.

11 Q And Mr. Gordon is a kind of guy who is known for

12 pretty much taking things under his own control; is that

13 correct?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And when he ran the business during the five years

16 that you were there, he did not come around and solicit

17 advice from salespeople as to how to run the business; is

18 that correct?

19 A Would you repeat that?

20 Q During the time that he ran the business while you

21 were there for five years approximately, is it correct

22 that Mr. Gordon did not -- well, he didn't have a

23 suggestion box, did he?
24 A He did have a sugge stion box.
25 Q Did he go around and solicit from various salespeople

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5775
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 their views on how the business should be run, changes in

2 the business? Did he say that? Would he do that?

3 A Yes, he would.

4 Q And did he -- would he go around during this time

5 period and invite criticism from salespeople?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And would it be fair to say that he would ask

8 salespeople -- is it your testimony that he would ask

9 salespeople to tell him what he was doing was misleading

10 or wrong, and when he heard that, he didn't mind?

11 A Repeat that again?

12 Q Are you saying that salespeople in this -- withdrawn.

13 Are you saying Mr. Gordon was a kind of

14 intimidating kind of personality?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And was he the kind of guy that salespeople wo uld go

17 up to and say, gee, Mr. Gordon, I think what you are doing

18 is a misrepresentation? Is that the kind of guy he was?

19 A You have to repeat that again.

20 Q Is he the kind of guy a salesperson would feel

21 comfortable going up to him and saying, gee, Mr. Gordon,

22 what you are doing I feel is a misrepresentation?

23 A Yes, he would listen to it.
24 Q Salespeople would feel comfortable in making such an
25 accusation?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5776
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 A I am sorry. It would be uncomfortable.

2 Q This happened a lot? Is that your testimony?

3 A No, it didn't happen a lot.

4 Q Now, isn't it correct that all those exhibits in the

5 binder, pitch sheets, every single one of them mentions

6 the B-Balance? Take a look at them.

7 THE COURT: We will not go through each of the

8 pitch sheets. Have you gone through them?

9 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.

10 THE COURT: They mention the B-Balance?

11 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, in one way or another.

12 THE COURT: We accept your word for it.

13 Q Let me ask you this, Mr. Saffer. Before you came up

14 here and testified, you were shown by Mr. White a bunch of

15 pitch sheets, right, exhibits?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And you looked at those exhibits, and you spent maybe

18 ten or fifteen seconds going through them, and you

19 identified them as pitch sheets, pitch sheets used by

20 Who's Who Worldwide during the time that you were there;

21 is that correct?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q And I assume it was not the first time that Mr. White
24 or one of the postal inspectors showed you that set of
25 pitch sheets; is that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5777
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 A That's correct.

2 Q Otherwise you would have spent a lot more time

3 looking through them to identify them; is that correct?

4 A I have been using these pitch sheets for five years

5 at one time or another.

6 Q Isn't it correct, sir, that not a single one of those

7 pitch sheets fails to mention that there is going to be

8 another payment of $97 or $99 at some later point, either

9 in December or when the registry is released? Not a

10 single one fails to mention that, correct?

11 A Some of the sheets do not mention it, like an

12 objection sheet.

13 MR. TRABULUS: Move to strike.

14 THE COURT: Motion granted, strike the answer as

15 not responsive.

16 Q Mr. Saffer, I am asking you about pitch sheets,

17 right?

18 A Yes.

19 Q The script:

20 Isn't it correct each mentions $97?

21 A Practical ly all of them.

22 Q Practically all of them or all of them?

23 A All of them.
24 Q That's right, all of them do.
25 Now, the objection sheet, that's not a complete

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5778
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 script?

2 A It is part of the script. It is a supplement to the

3 script.

4 Q It is not comprehensive, the objection sheet doesn't

5 list everything that you are supposed to say, right? Is

6 that correct?

7 A They list what you are supposed to say if an

8 objection comes up.

9 Q They don't address the issue of the B-Balance, right?

10 A Not on the objection sheet, no.

11 Q Because that is addressed in the pitch sheet, right?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q Now, is it not correct, sir, that each one of those

14 objection sheets contains something to say, if the

15 pros pective member asks, how was I selected?

16 A Can you repeat that again?

17 Q Yes.

18 Is it not correct, sir, that each one of the

19 objection sheets contains a response that the salesperson

20 is to use if somebody is speaking to, is asking, how was I

21 selected?

22 A That's on --

23 Q Objection sheet.
24 A An objection sheet.
25 Q And the objection sheet, everyone addresses that; is

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5779
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 that correct?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And throughout the period of time when you were

4 working at Who's Who Worldwide, there was an objection

5 sheet in force, and it may have changed from time to time,

6 but that objection sheet always provided something to be

7 said, if somebody you were speaking to on the phone asked,

8 how was I selected; is that correct?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Now, in response, take a look at Exhibit 329 in

11 evidence.

12 Can you read to the members of the jury what that

13 says concerning what is to be said if somebody asks you,

14 how was I selected?

15 A At my level I wouldn't know. However, I can tell you

16 that some individuals are nominated by the established

17 members, and other individuals are submitted to our public

18 affairs office.

19 Q Now, Mr. Saffer, that response does not tell the

20 particular member that is being spoken to, the particular

21 prospective member that is being spoken to, that he or she

22 specifically was nominated by another member; is that

23 correct?
24 A No, it says that some individuals are nominated by
25 established members.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5780
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Q And ot hers are submitted to the public affairs

2 office; is that correct?

3 A That's what it says.

4 Q And it says that the -- at the level that the person

5 who is speaking speaks, they wouldn't know; is that

6 correct?

7 A Excuse me?

8 Q The person who answers the question says, at my level

9 I wouldn't know; is that correct?

10 A The sales individual you mean?

11 Q The salesman. And that means that that salesman

12 wouldn't know how the particular person he or she was

13 speaking to was selected; is that correct?

14 A Well, they were nominated. They were nominated by

15 established members.

16 Q And other individuals are submitted to our public

17 affairs office; is that correct?

18 A That's what it says.

19 Q So, it leaves open at least two possibilities. One,

20 nominated by established members, and, two, being

21 submitted to our pu blic affairs office, without saying how

22 that came to be, right?

23 A Correct.
24 Q That particular objection sheet is dated October
25 27th, 1992; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5781
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 A That's correct.

2 Q And Mr. White asked you, did he not, about a pitch

3 sheet, number 361. Would you turn to that.

4 A I have it.

5 Q And he read to you -- he asked you to read, I

6 believe, or maybe he read to you the following line: You

7 can anonymously nominate up to two qualified individuals

8 annually, much like you were nominated.

9 A Yes. Indicating that you were nominated.

10 Q Now --

11 MR. SCHOER: Objection.

12 MR. TRABULUS: Move to strike.

13 THE COURT: Motion granted. Strike the answer as

14 not responsive. The jury is instructed to disregard it.

15 Q Now --

16 THE COURT: Take it easy, Mr. Trabulus. I am

17 going to give you a chance.

18 Now, Mr. Saffer, you are going to be asked on

19 cross-examination, as is the proper procedure, questions

20 asking for a yes or no answer. Most of the questions are

21 going to call for a yes or no answer because the attorneys

22 are permitted to question you on specific points that he

23 or she wants to do that; you understand that?
24 THE WITNESS: I understand.
25 THE COURT: Now, try to answer yes or no. If you

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5782
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 can't, say I can't answer yes or no.

2 THE WITNESS: I understand.

3 THE COURT: Don't make explanations.

4 THE WITNESS: I understand.

5 THE COURT: Don't add these comments that you

6 think may be necessary to fully explain. They may be

7 necessary, but the cross-examiner is entitled to get the

8 specific answer.

9 Now, Mr. White who questioned you originally will

10 have another opportunity to talk to you. If he thinks

11 anything was left out, believe me he will ask you about

12 it.

13 So, just listen to the questions and answer

14 responsively.

15 Of course, if you don't know, or don't remember,

16 freely say so.

17 Do you understand our procedure?

18 THE WITNESS: I understand.

19 THE COURT: Okay.

20 Q Now, that objection sheet that I just read from is

21 dated December 22nd, 1992; isn't -- excuse me, withdrawn.

22 We were talking about Exhibit 361, and it is not

23 an objection sheet, it is a pitch sheet?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q And that is dated December 22nd, 1992; is that

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5783
Saffer-cross/T rabulus


1 correct?

2 A That's correct.

3 Q Now, I had asked you to read from 329 before. 329 is

4 dated October 27th, 1992; is that correct?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q So, 329 is the objection sheet that was in use at the

7 time that this pitch sheet, dated December 22nd, 1992 was

8 being used; is that correct? As far as you can tell?

9 A The pitch sheet was dated December, 1992.

10 Q Right.

11 And among the objection sheets marked in

12 evidence, which are in front of you in the folder, the

13 latest date is October 27th, 1992, except for pitch

14 sheets -- excuse me, except for objection sheets that are

15 dated after the pitch sheet, December 22nd? So that's the

16 latest edition of the objection sheet prior to the date of

17 this pitch sheet.

18 If you want to verify that, look through the

19 exhibits.

20 A Well, there are oth er objection sheets dated May of

21 '94.

22 Q That one would not have been in use in December of

23 '92, would it?
24 A No, you are correct.
25 Q And the latest date of objection sheet that could

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5784
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 have been in use in December of '92 is October 27th, '92,

2 and that's Exhibit 329; is that right?

3 A That is correct.

4 Q And that's the one -- withdrawn.

5 If in the course of receiving the pitch of a

6 sales presentation 361, December 27, 1992 -- a member -- a

7 customer were to ask, how was I selected, who nominated;

8 would not the response be from the objection sheet, at my

9 level I wouldn't know. However, I can tell you that some

10 individuals are nominated by the established members and

11 other individuals are submitted to our public affairs

12 office; would that have been the response made at that

13 point in time?

14 A That would have been the response.

15 Q In fact, every one of these objection sheets, 329,

16 330, 331, I will not read all the numbers, but all the

17 ones that you identified as objection sheets, isn't not

18 true that a response to the question, how was I selected,

19 they leave open multiple possibilities, one of which is

20 nomination by another member or members, but the other of

21 which involves public affairs, media, things of that sort?

22 A Could you repeat that question, please?

23 Q Sure. Let's break it down.
24 Exhibit 330; is that an objection sheet?
25 A It is.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5785
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Q And that is dated January 29th, 1992?

2 A '92.

3 Q And what does it say that you are sup posed to say in

4 response to the question, how was I nominated? Read it to

5 the jury, please.

6 A At my level I wouldn't know exactly. However, I can

7 tell you about 30 to 40 percent are nominated by our

8 established members, while they were permitted to nominate

9 up to two qualifying individuals annually.

10 Q Continue?

11 A Shall I go on?

12 And about 40 percent are research. It could be

13 that you were -- that there was an article about your

14 company or yourself in Business Week, Forbes, Fortune, or

15 a trade publication.

16 Q Now, it says that 30 to 40 percent are nominated by

17 established members, right?

18 A That is correct.

19 Q And it says about 40 percent are research, right?

20 A That's what it says.

21 Q And it leaves open another 20 percent that it doesn't

22 talk about, correct? 20 to 30 percent?

23 A That's right.
24 Q So, there is still a third possibility although it is
25 not specifically addressed, right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5786
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 A Yeah, but --

2 Q Yes, or no, sir?

3 A I don't know if I can answer that yes or no without

4 an explanation.

5 Q Let's turn to 331.

6 Also an objection sheet?

7 A That's an objection sheet.

8 Q In response to how was I selected, it says: At my

9 level, I wouldn't know. However, I can tell you that some

10 individuals are nominated by the established members, and

11 other individuals are submitted to our public affairs

12 office.

13 A That's two ways.

14 Q What?

15 A That's two ways, yes.

16 Q Number -- well, there can be several different ways

17 in which individuals can be submitted to the public

18 affairs off ice; is that not correct? Yes or no, sir?

19 A That's correct.

20 Q In fact, do you know all the ways in which the public

21 affairs office got the names of potential members, do you

22 know?

23 A No, I don't.
24 Q There was a public affairs office, right?
25 A Yes, there was.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5787
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Q Now, as you sit here today, do you seriously think

2 that it made any difference whatsoever to any prospective

3 member, whether that public affairs officer was called a

4 public affairs office, or board of governors, or

5 membership committee? Do you think those different titles

6 would have made any difference at all, sir? Yes or no?

7 MR. WHITE: Objection.

8 THE COURT: Sustained.

9 Q For how much of the time that you were at Lake

10 Success did you work in the bla ck room? Were you there

11 all the time or just some of the time?

12 A A good percentage of the time I was in the black

13 room.

14 Q Were there other times that you were not in the black

15 room?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And is it fair to say that you were not one of the

18 very top performers among the salespeople?

19 A One of them.

20 Q You were not?

21 A I was one of the top salespeople. That's why he was

22 in the black room.

23 Q You got 55 -- withdrawn.
24 Is it fair to say that Mr. Gordon liked you?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5788
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Q And perhaps more than the typical salesperson; is

2 that correct? From what you can tell?

3 A I don't know. He liked me. I liked him, too.

4 Q Okay.

5 Were you aware that the people in the black room

6 would receive a higher base salary than the people in the

7 other area?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And do you personally know whether all the nomination

10 ballots that came in were handled by means of giving them

11 out to salespeople? Or do you know if something different

12 was done with some of the nomination ballots? Do you

13 personal know? Yes or no, sir?

14 A You have to repeat that.

15 Q You talked about nomination ballots being distributed

16 to salespeople?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Is that correct?

19 A That's correct.

20 Q And as I understand it, it was a kind of reward for

21 doing well because nomination ballots were particularly

22 good leads; is that correct?

23 A That's correct, they were.
24 Q There was a pretty high percentage of people whose
25 names were on nomination ballots, actually purchasing a

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5789
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 membership; is that correct?

2 A There was what?

3 Q A higher percentage of people on the nomination

4 ballots purchased a membership once they were contacted?

5 A Yes. It was a very good lead.

6 Q That's what made it a good lead; is that right?

7 A That is correct.

8 Q And these nomination ballots were kind of given out

9 to salespeople to contact directly as kind of almost like

10 a bonus; is that right? An incentive?

11 A An incentive? Yes.

12 Q A reward?

13 A Yes, that's fair enough.

14 Q Do you know if all the nomination ballots were dealt

15 with that way or whether some were done in another way?

16 Yes or no, sir?

17 A You have to repeat that again.

18 Q Do you know if each of the nomination ballots

19 received was handed out to a salesperson? Yes or no?

20 A Can I give you an explanation on that?

21 Q The question is: Do you know one way or another,

22 sir?

23 A Would you please repeat the question one more time.
24 I drew a blank for a second.
25 Q Okay. Feel free, if that ever happens, ask me.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5790
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Do you know one way or the other, whether each

2 and every nomination ballot that came in was distributed

3 to a salesperson to use as a lead?

4 A No, I don't.

5 Q Do you know one way or another whether or not some

6 nomination ballots, the names on some nomination ballots

7 after being telephoned were sent lead cards? Do you know

8 one way or another, sir?

9 A If they were sent lead cards?

10 Q If they -- withdrawn.

11 Do you know if there was a process whereby after

12 a nomination ballot came in, and the person was called, a

13 lead card and correspondence was sent to that person? Do

14 you know --

15 A No, I don't know.

16 Q If that were so and a lead card came into you --

17 A Yes. A regular lead card.

18 Q -- you wouldn't know whether that lead card reflected

19 a nomination, would you?

20 A I would assume it reflected a nomination because it

21 was a card that was returned.

22 Q What I am saying is this, and perhaps I misphrased my

23 question.
24 If lead cards were sent out after a person was
25 nominated by another member, when that lead card came

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5791
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 back, you would not have any -- and it was given to you,

2 you would have no way of knowing whether that lead card

3 came from a person on a mailing list, or a name submitted

4 b y another member; is that correct?

5 A I would say that's correct, I wouldn't know.

6 Q Now, when you testified that two percent of your

7 leads came from nomination ballots, and 98 percent came

8 from lead cards, you don't know whether among those lead

9 cards were lead cards that resulted from nominations from

10 other members, do you?

11 A I find it to be a confusing question.

12 Q I will try to break it down and ask it again.

13 A Break it down, yes.

14 Q When you said two percent came from nomination

15 ballots --

16 A That I received.

17 Q That you received, correct?

18 A Yes.

19 Q The rest came from lead cards; is that right?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And you don't know what led to those lead cards in

22 each case?

23 A They were sent back into the company requesting a
24 membership.
25 Q And some of them may have been because the names came

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5792
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 from a mailing list, right?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And some of them, you don't know one way or another,

4 could be because a nomination ballot had been sent in --

5 A To the company, yes.

6 Q And then a lead card with correspondence was sent out

7 to the person who was nominated by the other member,

8 correct?

9 A There is a possibility, yes.

10 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, would this be a good

11 time to break?

12 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to

13 take a ten-minute recess. Please do not discuss the case

14 and keep an open mind. Please recess yourselves.

15 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the

16 courtroom.)

17

18 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)

19

20

21

22

23
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5793
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 THE CLERK: Jury entering.

2 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the

3 courtroom.)

4 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the

5 jury.

6 I had a very nice experience just before which

7 delayed me.

8 A Justice of the State Supreme Court in Queens

9 County who I knew very well just dropped by because his

10 son is taking the bar examination next door at Hofstra Law

11 School. And it was very nice to renew an acquaintance. I

12 was formerly a State Supreme Court Justice myself, and I

13 tried cases before this particular gentleman as a lawyer.

14 And so, we had a lot of bonds. I am sorry for delaying,

15 his name is Arthur Lonschein. I am sure the lawyers all

16 know him.

17 You may proceed.

18 MR. TRAB ULUS: Thank you, your Honor.

19

20 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)

21 BY MR. TRABULUS:

22 Q Mr. Saffer, you told us before that back in 1991 or

23 so, you were given a list, a Dun & Bradstreet list to make
24 telephone calls from?
25 A I said a list, not a Dun & Bradstreet list.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5794
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Q You were given a computer printout?

2 A That's right.

3 Q It was not a Dun & Bradstreet list; is that right?

4 A To the best of my knowledge.

5 Q Were you told that the people you were to call from

6 his list had previously been sent a letter from Who's Who

7 Worldwide; do you recall that?

8 A No, I don't.

9 Q Did you use a pitch sheet in calling these people?

10 A Yes, I did.

11 Q And did you recognize among any of the pitch sheets

12 you reviewed bef ore coming and testifying today, the same

13 pitch sheet that you used?

14 A I would have to take a closer look.

15 Q I would like you to do that. Try 348; and also look

16 at 347.

17 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

18 proceedings.)

19 A It could have been one of the pitches I used.

20 Q Those could have been one of the two?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Those two pitch sheets are different from the others,

23 not they, in one important respect; is that right?
24 Let's not make any mystery about it. These two
25 pitch sheets, unlike the others, say we never received a

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5795
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 form back from them; is that right? All the others thank

2 the person for sending back the form in the mail, but

3 these don't; is that right?

4 A One mentions that the boar d of governors sent you a

5 letter indicating you have been nominated and confirmed

6 for inclusion.

7 Q Continue reading that.

8 A I am sorry.

9 In the platinum edition of the Who's Who

10 Registry, we never received your authorization form.

11 Q That's 347, right?

12 A That's 347.

13 Q And 348 has basically the same language --

14 A Saying we never received.

15 Q 348 has basically the same language, but instead of

16 saying board of governors, it says public affairs office?

17 A Yes, that's the difference, yes.

18 Q And all the other pitch sheets, virtually all of

19 them, thank the person for sending back the form; is that

20 correct?

21 A All the others?

22 Q Just about.

23 I want to thank you for sending back the form.
24 A I see it.
25 Basically, less.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPO RTER

5796
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Q And these were pitch sheets used for potential

2 customers where there was no lead card, right?

3 A That would be correct.

4 Q But they indicate, do they not that, do they not,

5 that there was a preceding mailing?

6 A Repeat that?

7 Q Each is based on the customer having received a

8 preceding mailing; is that right?

9 A That is correct.

10 Q When you were calling people off this list instead of

11 using a lead card, you were not making a cold call, were

12 you?

13 A Yes, I was.

14 Q Weren't you making a call to someone previously

15 solicited by a letter?

16 A Not all the time. I didn't always use these two

17 scripts.

18 Q You are saying there was another script we don't have

19 here for people who were cold calls; is that correct?

20 A Mr. Gordon one time mentioned to me th at --

21 MR. TRABULUS: Move to strike.

22 THE COURT: Motion granted. Strike out the

23 answer.
24 Listen to the question. Remember --
25 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5797
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 THE COURT: That the questions mostly call for a

2 yes or no. When you can't answer yes or no, just say so.

3 When you say that, Mr. Trabulus has to decide what he is

4 going to do. Is he going to ask you, answer in your own

5 way, which is doubtful, or he will just rephrase the

6 question.

7 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.

8 THE COURT: You understand that now?

9 THE WITNESS: I understand.

10 THE COURT: Okay.

11 Q Now, Mr. Saffer, earlier on in your testimony from

12 Mr. White, you were asked how you determined if a customer

13 was qualified, and you said mainly by business title; is

14 that right?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q So, your yourself went through a process of

17 qualifying customers; is that correct, by title?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q When you found somebody who was not qualified --

20 withdrawn.

21 You were given a bunch of cards; is that correct?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q And you would go through them and qualify them; is
24 that correct?
25 A That is correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5798
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Q And you would take cards out which were not

2 qualified; is that right? Yes or no, sir?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And what would you do with those cards?

5 A I returned the card to my manager, Tara Green.

6 Q And she would give you another card?

7 A She would give me another card.

8 Q You would not lose a sales prospect by returning a

9 card which was unqualified; is that right? You would get

10 a new one?

11 A That's right.

12 Q No one discouraged you from returning a card; is that

13 correct?

14 A Correct.

15 MR. TRABULUS: I think the next

16 Defendant's Exhibit would be AQ; is that correct?

17 (Document handed to Mr. White.)

18 Q Mr. Saffer, I am going to show you

19 Defendant's Exhibit AQ for Identification.

20 Take a look at it.

21 (Handed to the witness.)

22 Q I am going to ask you, are you familiar with that

23 particular type of form?
24 A Yes, I am.
25 Q Was that a form used by Who's Who Worldwide at a

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5799
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 certain point?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And that was used toward the latter portion; is that

4 right, in 1994, around there? Maybe even lat er?

5 A Around there, yes.

6 Q Now, this form was a form of lead card, was it?

7 A It was a nomination ballot.

8 Q But it had something to do with the right and the

9 left; is that correct?

10 A That's correct.

11 Q What was the part on the left?

12 A Somebody accepting a nomination for inclusion in

13 Who's Who Worldwide, and his signature.

14 Q Okay.

15 And on the right at the same time that person is

16 given the opportunity to make three nominations; is that

17 correct?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q And on that particular card, indeed three nominations

20 are made; is that correct?

21 A On this particular card, yes.

22 Q Of course, quite frequently these may come back with

23 one nomination or two nominations, or no nominations; is
24 that right?
25 A That is correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5800
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Q And this card was used a great amount during the time

2 period in 1994; is that correct?

3 A A great amount?

4 Q Right. There were thousands of them, many thousands?

5 A I can't say that. I only saw a few.

6 Q I am not going to mark this as an exhibit,

7 Mr. Saffer, but I would like you to look through this box

8 and tell me if you find a bunch of cards there. Why don't

9 you --

10 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, may I look through the

11 box, too?

12 THE COURT: Sure.

13 MR. TRABULUS: Sure.

14 Your Honor, this box came from the government

15 warehouse, along with six others in the back room there.

16 THE WITNESS: Do you want me to come around

17 there?

18 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, I think that maybe you

19 should.

20 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

21 proce edings.)

22 Q Mr. Saffer, just look through this box and tell me if

23 you see this form, among others in there. Look around to
24 see if there is a fair number, if a fair percentage of
25 them are like that.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5801
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 A These are lead cards?

2 Q Right. There are different forms in there, right?

3 THE COURT: What is your question, Mr. Trabulus?

4 Q Do you see a fair number of these forms that have

5 nomination ballots in there?

6 A There is a fair number.

7 Q And if I were to tell you that there were six more

8 boxes just like this, would that surprise you?

9 A Yes, it would.

10 THE COURT: You are not going to take the six

11 more boxes out? You say there are six more boxes?

12 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.

13 THE COURT: We accept your word for it.

14 M R. TRABULUS: Thank you.

15 Your Honor, I would offer AQ in evidence.

16 THE COURT: Any objection?

17 MR. WHITE: No. But I would like to ask

18 Mr. Saffer a few questions about it.

19 THE COURT: Sure.

20 MR. TRABULUS: I am leaving it with him.

21

22

23
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5802
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. WHITE:

3 Q On Defendant's Exhibit AQ, the guy -- the person who

4 filled out the left side of the card --

5 A Yes.

6 Q Did they get a mailing? What is your understanding,

7 did they get a mailing?

8 A I assume they would have gotten a mailing.

9 Q And as Mr. Trabulus asked you, that person is asked,

10 if they want to give other nominations, and they list

11 those on the right side; is that right?

12 A Th at is right.

13 Q At the time that person is asked to do that, they are

14 not even a member, right?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q So, the nominator in this case is just some guy off a

17 mailing list; is that right?

18 A That would be correct.

19 Q And you know less about the guy on the right than you

20 do on the left; is that right?

21 A That's right.

22 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, beyond the scope of the

23 voir dire.
24 THE COURT: Yes, strike out the answer.
25 MR. WHITE: No objection.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5803
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit AQ, Abel Queen in

2 evidence.

3 (Defendant's Exhibit AQ received in evidence.)

4

5 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)

6 BY MR. TRABULUS:

7 Q Let's go back to this ballot.

8 THE COURT: This ballot meaning AQ?

9 MR. TRABULUS: AQ.

10 Q Now, when such things were received, was the person

11 whose name was listed on the left called up?

12 A No.

13 Q When you got this, would you call up --

14 A The person on the right.

15 Q Is that because the person on the left was not a

16 member and you were not soliciting them?

17 A I wasn't sure.

18 Q Okay, thank you.

19 Just to make it clear for the jury, you would

20 just call up the people being nominated; is that right?

21 A That is correct.

22 Q Now, how much did you make a year while you were at

23 Who's Who Worldwide?
24 A A year --
25 Q About 38, 40,000 dollars?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5804
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 A It would average about $37,000 a year.

2 Q And you were aware other salespeople were making

3 considerably more than that?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And that's because they were producing considerably

6 more than you were; is that correct?

7 A Yes, it is.

8 Q They would be given as an award or incentive for

9 that, more nomination ballots than you would be; is that

10 right?

11 A They would if on that particular day they had more

12 sales than I did.

13 Q Well, if those particular days averaged out over the

14 course of the year that they made substantially more than

15 you did, is it fair to say they were given substantially

16 more nomination ballots to call over the course of the

17 year?

18 A Yes, that's correct.

19 Q Now, when you sold over the phone, would you say that

20 you used high pressure?

21 A Me personally? No.

22 Q You personally.

23 A No. I was not a high pressure sales individual. I
24 didn't consider myself to be.
25 Q And nobody asked you to use high pressure, did they?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5805
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 A No.

2 Q Now, when you were interviewed by Biegelman, I think

3 you indicated to him that there were pitch sheets that

4 mentioned conferences in Vietnam or Hong Kong; is that

5 correct?

6 A Yes.

7 Q But those pitch sheets were dated before the

8 conferences were supposed to happen, correct?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And after the term, when the conferences were

11 cancelled, Mr. Gordon told you that, correct?

12 A Yes, he did.

13 Q And you did not yourself like to mislead people on

14 telephone about those conferences, correct?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q Now, are you aware, sir, that several people who are

17 confidential informants called Who's Who Worldwide and

18 spoke to you posing as p rospective members?

19 A I was not aware of that fact.

20 Q Has the government ever played any tapes for you with

21 your voice on it? Yes or no, sir.

22 A Yes.

23 Q And did you hear yourself giving a sales pitch to
24 somebody?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5806
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Q When was the most recent time that you did that?

2 A That I heard the tape?

3 Q Yes.

4 A Last week.

5 Q Now, did you hear a tape in which somebody posed as

6 Andy Capo, C A P O, I believe? Do you recall that?

7 A I don't recall.

8 Q Do you recall on that tape whether you recall the

9 name or not, that that person told you that they had

10 previously spoken to Walda, W A L D A, Sue Mantell?

11 A I don't remember that.

12 Q And Sue Mantell is another salesperson there; is that

13 correct?

14 A Yes, she was.

15 Q Do you recall that that particular person who spoke

16 to you on the tape got you to say that one of the

17 conferences happened by kind of putting you in the

18 position to say that it either did, or to say that Walda

19 Sue Mantell misled that person? Do you recall that?

20 A Repeat that again, please.

21 Q Yes.

22 Do you recall to say that this person who called

23 you managed to get you to say that one of these
24 conferences happened by putting in you the position to say
25 yes, it did, or else telling you another salesperson,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5807
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Walda Sue Mantell misled him and was wrong; do you recall

2 that?

3 A I don't recall that.

4 MR. TRABULUS: I would like to call tape number 4

5 SW 33. I guess we can call it GB.

6 We have no conference for this one.

7 THE COURT: Are you offering it in evidence?

8 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, under stipulation it will

9 come in.

10 THE COURT: What is the number or what is the

11 letter?

12 MR. TRABULUS: GB.

13 THE COURT: George Baker?

14 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.

15 THE COURT: Any objection?

16 MR. WHITE: No, your Honor.

17 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit GB, George Baker

18 in evidence.

19 (Defendant's Exhibit GB received in evidence.)

20 MR. WHITE: Do you want me to play it?

21 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, thank you, Mr. White.

22 (Tape is played.)

23 MR. TRABULUS: You can stop it at this point,
24 Mr. White.
25 Q You asked Mr. Capo, whose real name is Watstein or

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5808
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 West, you asked Mr. Capo, if Sue had previous ly qualified

2 him; is that correct? Not qualified but --

3 A Went over the information.

4 Q Reviewed him for the listing; is that correct?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And based on that you assumed he had already past

7 muster; is that correct? She had qualified him?

8 A That's right.

9 Q And based upon the fact, the circumstances that he

10 gave in terms of, that he had spoken to Sue, you assumed

11 he had originally received some kind of communication from

12 Who's Who Worldwide; is that right?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q And responded to that; is that correct?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q So, whatever selection process had gone into that

17 communication had already happened, right?

18 A That is correct.

19 Q Did you mention before that you had been told at some

20 point by Mr. Gordon that you weren't supposed to take

21 teachers?

22 A Yes, I did.

23 Q And did you also mention you were not to take people
24 in the Postal Service? Is that another category?
25 A No, I didn't say that.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5809
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Q What was the other one?

2 A Anybody who had the title of "assistant" or the word

3 "assistant" in their business title.

4 Q All right, fair enough.

5 You assumed this man was qualified based on what

6 he was telling you; is that right?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q And if in fact he hadn't spoken to Sue and she had

9 not gone over the information with you -- with him, his

10 deceiving you to the effect that she had led you to

11 believe that he had already been qualified, right?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q Now, Sue, of course, was another salesperson, right?

14 A Mantell, yes.

15 Q And she was s omebody, she was a co-worker; is that

16 right?

17 A That is correct.

18 Q And when he first mentioned a seminar or conference,

19 you said you had one that had been cancelled, right?

20 A That is correct.

21 Q And that's when he mentioned Vietnam and Hong Kong?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And you truthfully told him that it had been
24 cancelled, right? That's the one that had been cancelled?
25 A He mentioned Vietnam and one in South Carolina,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5810
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 County Hilton Head.

2 Q First he mentioned Vietnam and Hong Kong; is that

3 right?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And you told him it was cancelled; is that right?

6 A I told him that's the one I was talking about.

7 Q And that's what you were supposed to do, tell him it

8 was cancelled?

9 A Yes.

10 Q An d that's what Mr. Gordon told you you were supposed

11 to do; is that right?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And he also told you that you were supposed to say

14 that the one in Hilton Head was cancelled, too; is that

15 right?

16 A That is correct.

17 Q And this man then pressed you, because he led you to

18 believe that Sue Mantell told him about some kind of great

19 conference; is that right?

20 A That's correct.

21 Q And he put you in the position of either saying that

22 Sue Mantell, another salesperson from your business was

23 dead wrong and misled him, or else, telling him, yes,
24 there was a conference in Hilton Head, right? He put you
25 in that position, right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5811
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 A Could you repeat that again, please?

2 Q Yes.

3 When this guy did that, i t was Mr. West or

4 Watstein, he put you in a position, so you either had to

5 tell him, no, there was no conference at Hilton Head, Sue

6 Mantell was lying to him or was wrong, or else you had to

7 tell a little fib yourself and say, yeah, it was good, it

8 was local; right?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q Now, do you know that Mr. West, Watstein, was working

11 for the United States Government at the time he did that,

12 when he was posing as Andy Capo?

13 A No, I didn't know.

14 Q Now, when you decided that you were going to plead

15 guilty to this mail fraud charge, had your lawyer played

16 that tape for you or told you about it?

17 A No.

18 Q Did he tell you that there was evidence that you had

19 said something about a conference that didn't happen?

20 A My attorney?

21 Q Yes. Did you understand that? Did somebody say that

22 to you?

23 A I don't recall.
24 Q Did they explain to you that the government itself
25 through one of its own informants had put you in the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5812
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 position where to either protect your company or another

2 salesperson, you were made to tell a lie that you wouldn't

3 have told otherwise?

4 MR. WHITE: Objection.

5 THE COURT: Sustained.

6 Q Now, Mr. Saffer, you told us that there were some

7 times that you were given a computer printout of names to

8 call, and I believe you mentioned that earlier today; is

9 that right?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And, Mr. Saffer, there were -- there was a time later

12 that you were given a printout of member names to call to

13 upgrade?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Did you call to encourage members to upgrade for a

16 longer period of tim e?

17 A Yes, I did.

18 Q Is it fair to say that quite a few members did that?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And these were members who had been members for a

21 period of time; is that correct?

22 A That is correct.

23 Q Two years, three years, whatever?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q And they spoke to you, and they obviously were

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5813
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 satisfied enough to continue their membership; is that

2 correct? Extend it?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Now, in talking to these members -- withdrawn.

5 Did you from time to time in your work have

6 occasion to talk to people who had already been members,

7 even aside from upgrades, people who had joined, did they

8 talk to you again sometimes?

9 A Sometimes they would.

10 Q And would they call and talk to you about the

1 1 benefits they had received?

12 MR. WHITE: Objection.

13 THE COURT: Overruled.

14 Q Would they, sir?

15 A Well, I had cause to talk to members who would call

16 in and ask me questions. Sometimes it was a complaint.

17 Sometimes their listening was wrong. Sometimes they

18 wanted to change in a listing, because they got a

19 promotion; and sometimes because they didn't receive the

20 registry.

21 Q And those you would refer to someone else; is that

22 correct? Because that would not be your department; is

23 that correct?
24 A Well, I would try to settle it.
25 Q The people who wanted to change their listing because

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5814
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 they got a promotion, those people were certainly not

2 calling in for a complaint; is that correct?

3 A That's right.

4 Q And is it fair to say quite a few of the people you

5 spoke to, including the people with the upgrades,

6 expressed happiness with Who's Who Worldwide?

7 A That I really couldn't tell.

8 Q Did they talk to you about Tribute Magazine?

9 A Occasionally.

10 Q Did they say they liked it?

11 A If the subject came up about Tribute, yes, they would

12 say, a few, that they liked it.

13 Q Would they say that they liked the plaque that they

14 got?

15 A Some liked it and some didn't.

16 Q And that would be an individual idiosyncracy, as to

17 whether they liked it or not; is that correct?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Nobody told you that the plaque was entirely

20 different from what you described it to them; is that

21 right?

22 A No, nobody mentioned that.

23 Q And, in fact, your description of it was accurate; is
24 that right?
25 A That is correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5815
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Q Now, would the members sometimes talk to you about

2 the CD-ROM and you would speak to them?

3 A There was reference to the CD-ROM.

4 Q And did you sometimes sell members a CD-ROM?

5 A Yes, I did.

6 Q Did you ever get feedback from the members you sold

7 about the CD-ROM?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Is it fair to say some of them liked it?

10 A One in particular, one person I spoke to did say that

11 he had made some pretty good business contacts using the

12 CD-ROM, one person.

13 Q And did -- I assume you would occasionally get

14 somebody who said they had a problem setting it up? Did

15 that happen sometime?

16 A Not really.

17 Q Nobody really complained about it; is that right?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q In fact, whatev er feedback you got about the CD-ROM

20 was favorable, to the extent you got any; is that right?

21 A On the CD-ROM, that's correct.

22 Q I would like to go back to -- Mr. Gordon and the

23 other managers -- Mr. Gordon wasn't the manager, but the
24 managers they would consistently tell you and other sales
25 people to stick to the pitch; is that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5816
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 A That is correct.

2 Q Indeed, Mr. Gordon would sometimes say if you lie you

3 are out of here, right?

4 A Yes.

5 Q He would say stick to the pitch, that way you can't

6 get into trouble, or words to that effect; is that right?

7 A That is correct.

8 Q Now, the pitch also would include in this sense the

9 objection sheet, right?

10 A That's correct.

11 Q And the objection sheets that would say, for example,

12 in response to how was I selected, to paraphrase it,

13 either members could nominate other members, or, and it

14 would list another source or sources, public affairs or

15 whatever, right?

16 A On some of the objection sheets.

17 Q None of the objection sheets ever said you, meaning

18 the prospective member, were nominated by another member?

19 None of them ever said that, right, leaving no other

20 alternative?

21 A One of them did.

22 Q Can you point to one, an objection sheet that says

23 that?
24 A Can I look through it?
25 Q Yes, sure.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5817
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

2 proceedings.)

3 A Excuse me, it was on a pitch sheet I was looking for.

4 Q That's what Mr. White had you read; is that correct?

5 One of the ones he had you read, just like you were

6 nominated, or something like that?

7 A That's correct. That's what I am referring to.

8 Q It said you could nominate somebody just like you

9 were nominated?

10 A Just like you were nominated.

11 Q But it didn't say another member had nominated that

12 person?

13 A That's what you are insinuating.

14 Q If the person asked further about it they would hear

15 the objection sheet which would list several different

16 ways of being nominated; is that correct?

17 A They --

18 Q They were supposed to; is that right?

19 A That is correct.

20 Q And to those particular members to whom it was

21 important, they would pursue it further, and they would

22 hear the objection sheet; is that right?

23 A That is correct.
24 Q Incidentally, of -- do you recall as you sit here

25 today what percentage of the people you spoke to asked you

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5818
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 how they were nominated or selected? If you can't, you

2 can't, but do you have an idea?

3 A I mean, it did come up.

4 Q It came up from time to time; is that right?

5 A From time to time it came up, yes.

6 Q It wasn't something everybody asked, far from it?

7 A That's correct, not everybody asked.

8 Q By the way, with regard to Sue Mantell, you know she

9 was fired for lying; is that correct?

10 A Do I know she was -- no, I don't know if she was

11 fired for lying.

12 Q You know she was fired and begged for her job back

13 and was given it?

14 A Your attention I don't recall.

15 Q All right.

16 Did you enjoy your work at Who's Who Worldwide?

17 A Yes, I did.

18 Q You li ked it there, right?

19 A Yes.

20 Q It was one of the better jobs you had, right?

21 A I wouldn't say that.

22 Q More satisfying?

23 A It was fun.
24 MR. TRABULUS: Okay, let's play the rest of that
25 tape, which is GB.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5819
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 (Tape is played.)

2 Q Now, when you said that you didn't know anything

3 about the internal financial affairs of the company, that

4 was true, wasn't it?

5 A That was true.

6 Q When you said it was the largest Who's Who membership

7 organization in the world, membership organization, as far

8 as you knew that was true, right?

9 A As far as I knew it was true.

10 Q In fact, you had no reason to believe, you have no

11 reason to believe now it wasn't true, in terms of a

12 membership organization?

13 A No, I don't.

14 Q And in terms of indicating the amount of time that

15 the company had been in business and you had been working

16 there the five years, that was true?

17 A That was true, sure.

18 Q And on this particular tape, this particular man,

19 supposedly Mr. Capo, he didn't ask you how he was

20 nominated, right?

21 A No.

22 Q But on other tape recordings that you heard, when you

23 were asked, how was I nominated, you said it was by
24 another member, right?
25 A That he was nominated, yes, by another member.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5820
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Q In doing that you deviated from the objection sheet;

2 is that right? Yes or no, sir?

3 A I don't know if I can answer it with a yes or no

4 question -- answer.

5 Q You didn't quote the language of the objection sheet

6 when you responded to that, did you?

7 A I find it difficult to answer that question yes or no

8 without an explanation of showing you where it mentions

9 nomination in some of the sales pitches.

10 Q Well, the sales pitches that you were delivering on

11 those -- withdrawn.

12 When you were asked, how was I nominated --

13 A Yes.

14 Q -- you made up your own answer that was different

15 from the objection sheet, did you not?

16 A Sometimes I did, yes.

17 Q And, in fact, you heard tape recordings perhaps

18 during the past week or more than that, where you were

19 asked that question, and you said something which was

20 different from the objection sheet, right?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Your answer didn't leave open the possibility that

23 there was another source for the nomination other than
24 another member? You told the person, you have been

25 nominated by another member, right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5821
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 A You are referring to the tape?

2 Q Yes.

3 A That particular one? Which tape are you referring

4 to?

5 Q Did you hear any tape at all -- withdrawn.

6 How many tapes did you hear of you being -- you

7 interviewing a prospective member?

8 A Well, one obviously just now.

9 Q Just now. Four others?

10 A Two or three others.

11 Q Okay.

12 You understand now that those tapes were made by

13 somebody working for the government, posing as a potential

14 customer; is that right?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q In each one of those tapes when you were asked, how

17 was I nominated, you gave an answer that was different

18 from the objection sheet; is that right?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And you ma de that change yourself, right?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Mr. Gordon had always told to you stick to the pitch

23 and stick to the objection sheet, and you didn't, right?
24 A He did mention -- yes.
25 Q Now, on that tape we just heard, that man West, or

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5822
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Watstein, he made a pretty disparaging remark about postal

2 carriers; is that right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q It was completely uncalled for, except he was trying

5 to get you to say something to give him -- to create some

6 basis where you could be criticized for offering him a

7 membership, right?

8 MR. WHITE: Objection.

9 THE COURT: Sustained.

10 Q New, Mr. Saffer, I think you indicated that the only

11 thing that -- withdrawn.

12 I think you indicated that Mr. Gordon told you

13 that you were not sup posed to take people with the title

14 "assistant" in their name, and you weren't supposed to

15 take teachers; is that right?

16 A That's right.

17 Q He didn't tell you to change the title from

18 "assistant" to anything else, did he?

19 A No.

20 Q In fact, are you aware that there are quite a few

21 people with "assistant" in their title within the

22 registry?

23 A Yes, I am aware of it.
24 Q Did he ever tell you anything else besides that about
25 who he wanted in there and who he didn't want in there?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5823
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 A Well, only that they shouldn't have the word

2 "assistant" in their business title, and he didn't want

3 school teachers, as I recall.

4 Q Do you recall him ever saying he didn't want the

5 manager of an individual K-Mart, he wanted the regional

6 manager of K-Mart?

7 A He did say that.

8 Q And you could return the card and get another card?

9 A Yes, that's correct.

10 Q Did he also say that he was very anxious that the

11 information that people got -- that salespeople got

12 concerning the type of business that people were in and

13 the geographic area that they serviced be accurate. Do

14 you recall that?

15 A Yes, I do.

16 Q And did he explain if it wasn't accurate it would

17 impair the utility of the CD-ROM; is that right?

18 A I don't recall him saying that.

19 Q He wanted it to be accurate because members were

20 going to use it, and he didn't want them using something

21 that was inaccurate; is that right?

22 A That's true.

23 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I would like to begin
24 playing another tape.
25 THE COURT: How long is this tape going to take?



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5824
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 MR. TRABULUS: It is probably between the

2 portions of it that we are going to play, it is probably

3 going to take the balance of the day, because I understand

4 we are breaking up at 4:45.

5 THE COURT: How long is the tape going to take?

6 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I don't have a

7 transcript. I have it queued to the place we are going to

8 begin. I am not sure how long it is going to end. I

9 believe it is going to be more than 20 minutes.

10 THE COURT: It is going to be more?

11 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.

12 THE COURT: Then I will not take it now. We will

13 recess early today so that the juror who has to get

14 somewhere can get there without rushing.

15 Members of the jury, despite my predilection for

16 working right to the last minute, I am going to depart

17 from accepted practice because I am told that federal

18 judges should be flexible and open-minded. Although I

19 find it difficult to be so, I am going to try.

20 So, we will recess now until tomorrow morning at

21 9:30.

22 In the meantime, please do not discuss the case

23 either among yourselves or anyone else. Keep an open
24 mind. Have a nice evening and we will see you tomorrow
25 morning.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5825
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Please recess yourselves.

2 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the

3 courtroom.)

4 THE COURT: Mr. Saffer, you will have to be here

5 before 9:30 morning.

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.

7 THE COURT: Ready to resume testifying.

8 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.

9 THE COURT: You can leave the courtroom.

10 THE WITNESS: This --

11 THE COURT: Just leave that where it is.

12 You don't have to leave the courthouse. Just

13 leave the courtroom.

14 THE COURT: What is on for tomorrow, Mr. White?

15 MR. WHITE: I assume they will be a while with

16 Mr. Saffer, and we will also have Mr. Simmen tomorrow,

17 S I M M E N.

18 THE COURT: All right.

19 MR. WHITE: One thing with respect to yesterday,

20 about whether or not we have additional transcripts of the

21 tapes.

22 We have no other final transcripts. The ones

23 that I gave to the defendants prior to trial were draft
24 transcripts. I made them available to them pursuant to a
25 stipulation that everyone signed that it wouldn't be used

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5826
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 to cross-examine a witness, and it wouldn't be used at the

2 trial. It was just for the m, to assist them in reviewing

3 the tapes.

4 I am assuming that the primary reason that they

5 are asking is, for example, if we had a transcript now

6 they could use it to cross-examine Mr. Saffer, for

7 example.

8 That presents a bit of a problem because we have

9 some sort of drafts, first drafts of transcripts that I

10 can look at and see are quite obviously wrong. In other

11 words, they are attributing things to one person that are

12 really being said by another.

13 So, I am not sure that giving draft transcripts

14 is going to simplify anything. In fact it will make it

15 more complicated.

16 THE COURT: The drafts are not accurate?

17 MR. WHITE: The couple I reviewed last night are

18 affirmatively not accurate. I have not reviewed all the

19 additional ones. That's why they were drafts and not

20 final. They were prepared by people who did n't know

21 anything about the case. So I am at a loss I guess to

22 figure out what your Honor wants me to do.

23 THE COURT: We certainly don't want inaccurate
24 transcripts. That's not going to help any.
25 MR. WHITE: That's right.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5827
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 THE COURT: If you have any accurate transcripts,

2 although I am at a loss to understand why transcripts

3 would be inaccurate. What made these transcripts accurate

4 and the others inaccurate?

5 MR. WHITE: Because the ones that we have started

6 out as drafts, and me, or Inspector Pagano, or someone

7 else sat there with the same and sat there with the

8 transcript and corrected it, and the witnesses who made

9 them, like Mr. West did as well. The remaining ones we

10 have were prepared by transcribers at the postal inspector

11 services who know nothing about the case, don't know the

12 names, the places --

13 THE COURT: If they are inaccurate, they will

14 certainly not be useful.

15 MR. TRABULUS: May I say, that nobody wants an

16 inaccurate transcript. But if the inaccurate transcripts

17 are handed over to us, and if the inaccuracies are an

18 attribution, the name of the person, that can probably be

19 corrected easily.

20 That's the type of area where the first drafts of

21 transcripts have errors, and if the case is that the text

22 is good, as the drafts originally given to us, maybe it is

23 usable.
24 MR. WHITE: It runs the risk, your Honor, of
25 confusing the witness. It says there that you said that,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5828
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 and you didn't --

2 THE COURT: The thing it will d o is prolong the

3 trial. Because as soon as you start with the transcripts,

4 and the government says that they are not accurate, and

5 then I have to have a hearing as to whether they are

6 accurate or not.

7 MR. TRABULUS: I would not want to get into

8 that. But I am saying if there is some that the

9 attributions is incorrect, we can correct it, show it to

10 the government and maybe they will consent it is usable,

11 if perhaps not perfect.

12 MR. WHITE: The fast review I did, that is not

13 only problem.

14 THE COURT: If they are totally inaccurate, you

15 do not need to turn it over. It will only cause more

16 problems and lengthen the trial and not help them at all.

17 Are there none that are accurate? You said you

18 didn't look at all of them.

19 MR. WHITE: I didn't look at all of them. I took

20 a quick look --

21 THE COURT: Take a look at the rest of them.

22 MR. WHITE: All right.

23 THE COURT: See you tomorrow at 9:30.
24 MR. SCHOER: May I be heard with respect to one
25 other issue?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5829
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 THE COURT: Yes.

2 MR. SCHOER: I don't believe we received all the

3 3500 material with respect to this witness. Particularly,

4 I asked several times today for the investigative history

5 file, personal history data form which was prepared by the

6 postal authorities on the date this witness was arrested.

7 I don't know whether or not he made a statement on that

8 day, as many of the people -- many of the defendants did.

9 We have copies of things that relate to the defendant with

10 respect to the date of arrest, but nothing relating to

11 this witness with respect to the date that he was

12 a rrested.

13 THE COURT: I assume that Mr. White turned over

14 everything. Why do you believe he did not? What evidence

15 do you have to make a statement like that?

16 MR. SCHOER: Judge, I don't have it. I asked

17 co-counsel if they ever received it.

18 THE COURT: Maybe there is none.

19 MR. SCHOER: I assume he was arrested, there must

20 be at least his personal history data.

21 THE COURT: Is there a personal history data for

22 Mr. Saffer.

23 MR. WHITE: I believe there is that form, your
24 Honor, which I thought I provided to the defense. I told
25 Mr. Schoer today the two times he asked me for it --

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5830
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 THE COURT: That's not enough. You have to say

2 it three or four times. And he is doing a job.

3 MR. SCHOER: I want it on the record, that's all.

4 THE COURT: I have great regard for Mr. Schoer's

5 insistency, his pugnacity. It is never ending. However,

6 he is doing a job for his client, which I suspect he

7 should.

8 Do you have such a form?

9 MR. WHITE: The answer is I believe I have it. I

10 believe I gave it to the defense. I will check again and

11 I will give him another copy.

12 THE COURT: Do you have it here?

13 MR. WHITE: I don't think I have it here, but I

14 will look. I think it is back -- I think I gave it to the

15 defense, but I will look again and give him another copy.

16 THE COURT: Okay.

17 Please try to find it and give him another copy

18 before tomorrow morning at 9:30.

19 MR. WHITE: I will.

20 THE COURT: Okay.

21 What else, Mr. Schoer?

22 MR. SCHOER: There was something else, Judge, but

23 I just lost it.
24 THE COURT: You will come back with it very
25 shortly.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5831
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 MR. SCHOER: Thank you.

2 THE COURT: Anything else?

3 Tomorrow morning at 9:30.

4 MR. SCHOER: I know what it is.

5 THE COURT: My faith in you is restored.

6 MR. SCHOER: Mr. White was going to find out,

7 your Honor, as to whether or not there were transcripts

8 concerning what we have called the Oxford tapes that were

9 given to us last week, and also other supporting documents

10 relating to those tapes, for example, the resumes that

11 were handed over to Mr. West, so we could attempt to track

12 down those people and their names and addresses.

13 MR. WHITE: Right. That's in the file that has

14 been requested from closed files. I have not had a chance

15 to check if we got it today. If it is there we will know

16 today.

17 THE COURT: And you will know Mr. Schoer about

18 it?

19 MR. SCHOER: Thank you.

20 THE COURT: Anything else?

21 MR. SCHOER: No.

22 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Wallenstein.

23 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Mr. Reffsin lost his mother
24 recently, and he is requesting to be able to leave about a
25 half an hour early tomorrow afternoon. He needs to take

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5832
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 care of personal matters with his brothers. This does not

2 pertain to him. And I will be here in any event.

3 THE COURT: Does Mr. Reffsin know it is in his

4 best interest to be here at all times?

5 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: Yes, your Honor.

6 THE COURT: Does he know that by leaving the jury

7 would get the wrong impression about him?

8 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: I hope not for a over

9 hour. I have to take the risk.

10 THE COURT: I am saying he might. Does he

11 understand that?

12 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: I understand, your Honor.

13 THE COURT: He wishes to leave any how?

14 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: I understand.

15 THE COURT: He is then excused.

16 You will be here, Mr. Wallenstein?

17 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I will be here.

18 THE COURT: All right.

19 (Case on trial adjourned until 9:30 o'clock a.m.,

20 Thursday, February 26, 1998.)

21

22

23
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5833

1 I-N-D-E-X

2
W-I-T-N-E-S-S-E-S
3
PAGE LINE
4 T H O M A S R. S K O N I E............... 5622 1
DIRECT EXAMINATION............................... 5622 12
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 5632 15
CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 5643 22
6 CROSS-EXAMINATION..... ........................... 5648 5
CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 5655 14
7 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 5661 7
CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 5666 1
8 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 5669 13
REDIRECT EXAMINATION............................. 5674 18
9 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 5687 21
RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 5701 3
10 FURTHER RECROSS EXAMINATION...................... 5702 17
FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION...................... 5705 11
11 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION...................... 5706 11

12 A L A N S A F F E R.......................... 5712 15
DIRECT EXAMINATION............................... 5713 4
13 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 5772 5
CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)....................... 5793 20
14 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION............................ 5802 1
CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)............. .......... 5803 5
15

16 E-X-H-I-B-I-T-S

17
Government's Exhibit 67-B received in evidence... 5629 25
18 Government's Exhibits 327 through 333 received
in evidence...................................... 5745 3
19 Government's Exhibits 335 through 337 received
in evidence...................................... 5745 5
20 Government's Exhibits 343 through 386 received
in evidence...................................... 5745 7
21 Government's Exhibit 391 received in evidence.... 5745 9
Government's Exhibit 392 received in evidence.... 5745 10
22 Government's Exhibit 388 received in evidence.... 5768 13

23 Defendant's Exhibit AQ received in evidence...... 5803 3
Defendant's Exhibit GB received in evidence...... 5807 19
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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This site is concerned with the Who's Who Worldwide Registry tragedy, and the double scandal of government and judical corruption in one of the dirtiest trials of the twentieth century and the concomitant news media blackout regarding this incredible story.

Sixteen weeks of oft-explosive testimony, yet not a word in any of 1200 news archives. This alone supports the claim that this was a genuinely dirty trial; in fact, one of the dirtiest federal trials of the 20th century.

Show your support for justice, for exoneration of the innocent, and perhaps most importantly, government accountability, by urgently contacting your Senator, the White House, and the U.S. Department of Justice.